Podcasts Dionne's story of sleeping and parenting in a counter-cultural way, adult sleep challenges, catnapping Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and would like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY: This episode takes in Dionne Davis' story. Dionne discusses how she challenged dominant parenting practices through questioning the logic and looking across other animal species and ultimately doing what felt right. She touches on how her own sleep challenges of persistent insomnia played into sleep for her family. Dionne talks about catnapping, bed-sharing and creating a realistic sleep environment. Full Episode Transcript: Carly Grubb: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly Grubb: And welcome back to The Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I'm your host Carly Grubb. And today I have the wonderful Dionne Davis as our guest and Dionne is a thought-provoking, strong and wise advocate and activist. Dionne is passionate about birth breastfeeding and decolonizing, the parenting space. She is a Black American woman currently living in Australia with her family. And you've been a member of The Beyond Sleep Training Project for over three years now. I believe Dionne? Dionne Davis: Yeah, I think I was there at the beginning. Yeah. Cause I remember, I remember like as soon as I like read like your first, your first post about it, I was like, oh yeah, I'm on it. I'm on it. And then when they started, when you started the group, I was like, yup, I'm there too. Cause it just, it just resonated with how I want to parent and how, you know, like children or people, you know what I mean? So, I think, I think if we start on that premise, you know, that they're fully human from birth. I think that'll go a long way and not just parenting, but in life and everything. Carly Grubb: That's brilliant. And I'm glad we could actually be there when, when you were looking for some solidarity as well. How far through your parenting experience were you when you found us? Dionne Davis: So, so wait, when did, when, when did you start? Carly Grubb: We were in 2017. It was Dionne Davis: 2017, yeah, exactly. So, my son was born June 1st, so yeah, I think, you know, either he was just like, depending on when it actually started, he was either a newborn or it was right before he was born. Um, yeah. Uh, so like, well, I always knew that, you know, I wanted to bed share, but, um, yeah, it was just so great to have a resource in a community to be like, okay, I'm not, I'm not alone in this. Carly Grubb: Absolutely. And so, before you had your son, did you have any, like you said you wanted to bed share. Did you have like the information you needed to be able to do that? Or like, were you, did you feel a little bit lost in the beginning? Dionne Davis: I was, I was a little bit lost. Because I just, I just knew that I wasn't buying a crib. I wasn't setting up a separate room as a nursery. I researched it. I found out about James McKenna. I found out about the safe sleep seven, and this was just my own, you know, Googling. I didn't have, you know, a midwife or anybody really leading me towards this information. I just sort of was like, okay, he's going to be right next to me. This is how we're supposed to sleep. We're mammals. So, this is where I'm going from and I just sort of found what I needed. And, I was very intimidated even with the information that I'd found. So, I actually purchased a device, uh, it's called a snuggle-me organic. Dionne Davis: It's kind of like a Doc-a-Tot or whatever else the other ones are so that he could sleep in that and still be in the bed and not, I wouldn't have to worry about me rolling over on him or fall rolling on over on him. Until I was comfortable with doing like a little C and I was really solid with that. Cause I was, you know, historically, and I know, you know, pregnancy changes you and your hormones change you so you don't sleep the way that you used to sleep, but you know, I was/am a very heavy sleeper. And so, you know, I just wanted to err on the side of caution. And now I know that they, they say all those devices, you're not supposed to use them for unsupervised sleep and blah, blah, blah. But I mean it's, for me, the snuggle-me organic was a lifesaver. Dionne Davis: I think it's amazing. And what Mia's done with that, that product is incredible. And I think it's a great, you know, method of easing your way into it. So, with that one, they're not supposed to be in it as soon as they can roll over it. They're out there right in the bed or to whatever co-sleeper when they can’t be in that anymore. And you know, right. Just like clockwork for four months, he started rolling over and by that point, you know, I was already preparing myself for it. And so, he just came into the bed and like, it was like, it was nothing, it was super easy. And he's still there almost four years later, but, yeah, I was, I was very intimidated and I get why people are really scared of it. And then, you know, just your natural inclination to be like, oh, and then, you know, the social pressure and, you know, having your paediatrician or your GP say, absolutely not, don't do it. Dionne Davis: You know what I mean? And the fear-mongering that goes on, because it doesn't, you know, bed-sharing is counter to everything that we're taught about parenting. And because, you know, the way we are parents and we're taught to parent in our society is the capitalist way. It's the way that gets the kid out of the way so that the mother can go back to work. Cause that's what it's all about. You know what I mean? So, we're taught to formula feed. We're taught to have them in a crib, having them separately have, you know, have them cry it out because you don't have time. You have to go to sleep yourself and they'll figure it out and they can self-soothe and you know, they're on their own. And you know, it's all about separation because that's how, you know, they create worker bees, you know, I'm not trying to hear that. Carly Grubb: And so, before you had your baby, you said you were already looking into how these kinds of concepts work. What actually got you on that path? Like, were you always familiar with their idea of bed-sharing in your family? Or what, what led you to actually be curious about that in the first place? Dionne Davis: Okay. So even when I was working in corporate finance, for a huge international investment bank, I would still on evenings and weekends, I would still babysit for one of the managing directors, you know, just because, you know, I'm an only child, but like, you know I was just a typical, only child, you know, I have my one other, pardon me, child who was, I was close to was my first cousin. And that was it. And I was fine with it. And then one time a former friend was supposed to babysit and she had a conflict and she's like, you know, do you mind covering for me? And I'm like, I don't know what to do. You know? She's like, oh no, you'll be fine to get up and she’ll go to sleep. Dionne Davis: You know, like it's easy and I'll never forget this child. Her name was Sarah. She was an only child. She was two. And so, I went and I was like, you know, my friend can't make it is this okay? And they were like ‘sure’ or whatever. And she had terrible separation anxiety and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, how are y'all going to do this? The both of you- as in my friend and her and the parents- like that. I mean, they were determined to go on their date night. So okay. Here I'm left with the child and the child’s screaming. And like, she just, wasn't trying to hear it. And, you know, Mary Poppins was born. Like I had this inner nanny in me and she was born that night and I just, I don't know what made me do it, but I started singing Sarah Smile by Hall and Oates to her. Dionne Davis: And she calmed down and we vibed until, until bedtime. Yeah. And we bought into a good time and I actually ended up stealing that job for my friend. Cause then after that, one she only wanted me, and, and that's how I started babysitting and, and from then on, it was like, forget about it. Like, you know, I just, I babysat all the time and like, cause I wasn't allowed to have real part-time jobs. Most of the time when I was a teenager, like one summer I was allowed to lifeguard, but my parents, my father in particular were just sort of like, you're a kid, you don't have any responsibilities. You know what I mean? Like in that sense, your responsibility to go to school and that's it, you know? So, like I didn't have to pay for my car or pay for my insurance or anything like that because they're like, you know, we got that covered, you know? Dionne Davis: So, you know, babysitting was great cause I could earn money and at the time it was good money, you know what I mean? So, I would just book myself out. And then when I went to, to college, I went to Barnard College in New York City and they actually have the Barnard babysitting service which is pretty famous. So, from that point on, I just, I signed up as soon as I got there and immediately, I got a gig with a family that I know to this day and those kids are now, uh, they're about to be 34 next month. They were twins, you know, and I babysat for them every Saturday night, my first year of college. And then, uh, that summer I was a weekend nanny in the Hamptons and yeah. So you know, and I did that, you know, I started from 15 until early thirties. Dionne Davis: And a lot of these families, I still am in contact with, you know, 20 to 30 years later. So, and I've always known that I wanted to be a parent, you know, so that for me happened, I remember that exact moment too when I just sort of like, this was what I was wanting to do. And when I finally met my husband and, and was ready, and we conceived Dillion, and by that point, I was hardened. I knew what I wanted to do. So, I'd say for bed-sharing though in particular. Um, cause I digressed a bit, I apologize, uh, with that. No, it was great. I remember, I remember in like say, I don't think I was babysitting anymore. I just, all of a sudden, I don't know what started it, but I was like breastfeeding, you know what I mean? Dionne Davis: Like something, I either read an article or saw something and I was like, oh yeah. When I become a parent, I want to breastfeed. And then from that, you know, then I learned about, more about, uh, routine circumcision and I learned about bed-sharing and you know, so it's like, I think the, the, the pathway for me was breastfeeding and that's what made me look more into parenting practices. And then, you know, once, you know, and like the idea of a nursery, always, like I liked the aesthetics of it, but, you know, I just, it just didn't seem practical. And it just seemed counterintuitive because like, you know, I've just spent nine months, you know, nurturing, creating this, you know, manufacturing this product. I'm not just going to put it on the shelf. You know what I mean? Dionne Davis: Like I'm not going to put it on the, on the display floor. Like I want, you know, I want it, I want it next to me. And it just, it just made sense. And I'm just, you know, like mammals were primates and I'm like, what monkey do you know that it's baby sleeps away from it? You know what I mean? What, what, what name, one other mammal that, you know, even like whales and they're in water, they're still cuddled up together, you know, like that's the way it's supposed to be. Carly Grubb: Absolutely the truth. And once you start thinking about it like that, it's hard to kind of refute or imagine. Yeah. It kind of makes a lot of the stuff start to seem a little bit nonsense. I was similar once I started exploring it that way as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's um, until you've put it into that kind of context, though, it can seem just the way things are or the way things are meant to be. So, you put that question. Excellent. So, when your baby came, how, what was sleep like for you guys? So, you already knew you were going to share sleep and you were going to breastfeed, but what actually happened once he arrived? How was he in life? Dionne Davis: So, I had a laparoscopic myomectomy, in 2015 to remove, uterine fibroids and a dermoid cyst, because you don't want to have either of those in your uterus. But prior to meeting my husband, I actually was going to become a parent on my own and did three rounds of intrauterine insemination, with my reproductive endocrinologist back in Baltimore. So, you know, I was, I was already going ‘oh’ and then a little bit after a year, uh, a little bit less than a year later, I met my husband and six months after I moved to Australia, we finally conceived. So when he was born, so because of the previous uterine surgery, I was ineligible to push, you know, I wasn't allowed, they told me at 20 weeks, like after they saw my surgical report for my previous surgery, they're like, Nope, you're not pushing, you're going to have to have, um, a caesarean. Dionne Davis: So, um, they scheduled my caesarean for 38 plus one. So that was June first, and you know, he was born and it was fine. So with, in New South Wales, I was at, I went public and I was at the Royal Hospital for Women in Randwick. And, they, if you have a C section they let you stay for five nights. Now you can go home early, if you want to, and then you'll have the midwife visit. And typically, they only let the, if you stay that long, you have one visit instead of two. So I stayed the full five nights and they actually had, a breastfeeding clinic led by one of the midwives there. And I went there a couple of days. Cause they, they, sort of have different things on different days. Like one, one day they show you how to bathe the baby and another day, you know, but like the breastfeeding clinic, I think they have just about every day, because some of the mothers obviously had vaginal deliveries and they're like out the same day or the next day, you know? Dionne Davis: So they want to make sure everybody has access. So came home. And like I said, I had snuggle me organic. So husband was intimidated by it, even with the snuggle me. So he's like, ‘no’. So since he was working, I gave him the bigger bed. I gave him our king size bed and I was thinking about I'll sleep with Dillian in the second bedroom, in the queen with the snuggle me and both mornings, so the first night we're home - wake up in the morning, he's at the foot of the bed, and, the next morning, the same. And then, then after that I was like, look, fool, like, obviously … he’s like ‘I miss you guys’’ and I’m like ‘well get in the bed’ so I'm like, how we’ll do, like, I'll, I'll push, we'll push the bed against the wall. I'll push that. I'll have the snuggle me next to the wall. I'll sleep in the middle and then you you're on the other side. Dionne Davis: So that way there won't be any accidents. You don't even have to worry about a stray elbow. That's all. So, um, so that, that worked and that, that was how it was. Now. I, only recently and I mean, like in the past three or four years realized this was because of my asthma, but, I've had insomnia intermittently, but when I have it, it's really bad. And chronic for going on, well now at this point for like 20 years and you know, I've been treated, but for it, but like, you know, never done a sleep study, but like, you know, like basically, they're just sorta like, oh, and they give me more medication and then getting another medication. And, you know, my constitution is like a horse when it comes to anything that's supposed to put me down or, or wake me up. Any of those types of pharmaceuticals just don't work for me. So, finally, I mean, after like five, six, seven years of trying to figure out what, what was the right combination? Like I can literally take a Xanax and I can drink a bottle of wine…… Carly Grubb: Oh my goodness Dionne Davis: Not that I've done that, not that I've done, I've only, it was only a split and it was totally accidental and it was on a plane. So, but, um.. Carly Grubb: Oh, mate! Dionne Davis: Yeah, I just have this really. I just, yeah, no, I have a really weird constitution. Like even in high school, like I try to stay awake to, to do projects, I could take any of the over-the-counter stuff, NoDoz, whatever they have. And they just either make me sick or not work at all. Like, you know, make me sick and not work or not work. And so I just gave up. Right. So finally we found a cocktail and like, I don't even tell people what I take if I really have to go to sleep because like it scares even doctors. They're like really? And I'm like, yes, really, it works. I'm responsible. Just write the script. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it. It if I didn't need it. So I'm used to not sleeping, you know what I mean? Like for me, like I had to be put in 36 hours before it's dangerous. Dionne Davis: So when he would wake up, it wasn't that big of a deal, you know, like I just whip out the boob and, feed him and go back to sleep. But he actually, from the very beginning would sleep five to six hours straight at night. And he did that up until about his four month vaccinations. So I've got better sleep than a lot of parents do. You know, do during that period of the fourth trimester, like he, he, he, in that regard he was champion, um, now he didn't nap and like, he was a huge cat napper and he was a contact napper. So if I moved wrong and woke them up, that was it game over. Dionne Davis: We just got to wait till the next. Yeah, exactly. We just got to wait till the next nap. And that gave me a lot of stress, but I just sorta was like, well, you know, his body knows what he needs. And I mean, if he doesn't need any more sleep, he doesn't need any more sleep. So I just sort of like, and I was like, ‘hopefully in 10 years’. Cause like I think it was like, just like those medications can make me sleep. I can't make him sleep. You know what I mean? So like, he'll sleep when he sleeps. So I just sort of had to be cool with that. I mean, the one thing that I didn't know that, or it just didn't register for me is that act should have pumped, like actually woken up myself during the middle of night to pump, you know, so that he didn't, you know, miss that feed, even though he was asleep and just saved it and gave it to him later. Dionne Davis: But you know, it is one of those, I mean, our breastfeeding journey is still going. So like we're all right. But, I was like, oh, I wish I would have, you know, I wish it would've clicked for me that, you know, even though he sleeping that I need to do that, you know? Yeah. Like, so, so like, it was like sleep for us hasn't been that bad. And I mean, he only just like, so he's about four and in the past, say nine months he started where he'll go to sleep and sleep 10, 10… he'll sleep the whole night, you know? And like, and I don't, and I don't mean just sleep five hours of sleep from whenever he went to bed to that, he wakes up in the morning unless he's sick. So now we're, we're, we're cruising now. Carly Grubb: Yeah. And it, he got there in his own time. So when it, when it comes to, like you said, he was a real catnapper and whatnot, how did you actually manage sleep during the day then? What was your, like, what were your tactics? Dionne Davis: My tactics were to optimize it, you know? So if we were in a position, you know, like, so if he fell asleep in the car, I've stayed in the car, you know what I mean? I didn't try it cause he never transferred. He still doesn't transfer, you know? And I mean, he could be dead, dead, dead asleep and like in a car or a plane or whatever, and he would not transfer. His father can do it. Like, I don't know what Dan has that I don’t. It is sometimes not even all the time, but like, but I absolutely cannot. So once I learned that, you know, like I was the queen of sitting the car and reading a book or playing on the phone or watching a movie in my home because I was not going to mess up his nap, you know? So, and I mean, actually, both of us still do that if we're in the car and he falls asleep oimr the car, even though, you know, just cause like obviously he needed it. So, I’m gonna give it to him, you know? Yeah, so like, you know, and if I got him, if he was in the, the, the wrap, um, for that kind of babywear as much as I could, you know, of course in hindsight, I wish I'd done more, but you know, it is what it is. Like you, you, you know, you know, what it is when it comes to parenting. But, I did, I did it as much as I could Dionne Davis: And, you know, if he falls asleep in the wrap, uh, he stayed in the wrap, if he fell asleep in the pram, he stayed in the pram, you know, I just, and I, that I just optimize the conditions. One thing that I did do, and I'm very glad that I did is that with regards to the noise, I didn't do anything. Like we didn't do any sort of white noise, or I had an app, you know, that I used a little bit, but I didn't want to condition him too much where he had to have had so many sleep crutches where, you know, if everything's not just perfect, he won’t sleep at all. And I wanted to expose him, cause I'm a city girl, like Baltimore is not that big, but what do you do when you’re in the city? And I've spent, you know, up until recently, it was a most of my adult life up there. Dionne Davis: Yeah, so I, I wanted him to like, you know, if the garbage truck goes by, or we live, mostly lived with the exception of when we lived in Vaucluse, we've mostly lived in the flight, in the flight path in Sydney, and, you know, the planes are pretty loud and they start at six and they don't stop until after, you know, till around 11, you know, after 10 o'clock at night. So, and at one point we lived really close to the Gladesville bridge, and you could hear, you know, the buses breaking in the motorcycles and everything. So I always made sure that, you know, I didn't modify the noise. Um, and I made sure the TV's on and all this other stuff, just so that he would become acclimated to that. So he can pretty much sleep and, you know, the phone can ring, or somebody can knock on the door, the buzzer, and he'll still stay asleep. But yeah, so I just, I just sorta copped it. And I mean, in the back of my head, I was really worried about it, but like I said, I can't make him sleep. So, you know, I just have to hope for the best. Carly Grubb: Absolutely, and did you find, like, as he got a bit older and he needed less naps in the day, did his naps lengthen, or did he remain a catnapper? Like what did you notice there? Dionne Davis: No, what happened is, he would do, when was really small and he was doing say three naps a day, that's that was when it was the most difficult. When he went to two naps a day, he, he would, he would do a solid bit, you know, like, so he'd do, if I, another way that I try to optimize it was to make sure he'd take, have his first nap early, cause he had to have his first nap early. If he'd have two naps if he, if he waited too late, then it just mess everything up. So if he had his first lap before 10 or around 10, and then he'd have a second nap around two or three-ish, you know, they they'd each be a solid like hour, hour and a half, you know? Dionne Davis: And now even now he still naps like on a basically, but when he goes to preschool he doesn't, but, like today, but, all the other days he'll still nap. So because I know that, you know, if I don't, if he doesn't have a nap, then he'll fall asleep by like four o'clock and then that's all, then we're screwed. Well, we're not, it's not that bad because he sleeps with us. So he'll just go to bed at 10 o'clock, you know? But, but if, if, if, you know, like on the days that he's home with me or on weekends, I'll try to make sure he takes his nap or like he's in a good position to sleep from 11 to 12, you know, like in that window, if he falls asleep there, then he won't sleep too late where it'll mess up him going to bed at a decent hour. So he didn't clock a good 10 hours, at least, but even now he still, he probably doesn't sleep as much as most kids, like, you know, on a good day, he'll get 12 hours. But as long as he get at least 10, 10 and a half, I'm happy. Carly Grubb: Yeah. That sounds, sounds spot on for a lot of kids, I think too. And it's amazing how much variation there is in between when kids finish napping. Yeah. Yep. Definitely. It's around that, that in the window of 10 to 12 hours is like, oh, I think it's actually nine to 12 hours is the range of normal. And so if he's also having a daytime nap, it all, yeah. It all accumulates into that 24 hours. So yeah, that's really cool. It is. That fascinates me. Dionne Davis: Me. Yeah. I'm just judging him by me because I was like, my dad when I was little, I mean, my father still lives with me. He's 73. I wish, like he can literally sleep 12 hours even now as an adult. And when I was a kid, I slept just like him. I would, you know, like I could sleep till 10 o'clock on a Saturday morning or even if I had stayed up late, like when I was a little bit older. Um, yeah. So yeah, like I, I just, you know, you always assume your kids are gonna be like you. I was like, yeah, he's going be like me, and sleep like that. Yeah. Carly Grubb: That wasn't for us either, I'm definitely a sleepy sleepy person and that was not the case, particularly with my first guy. It's like, nope, he definitely takes after his dad. Dionne Davis: You know, it's so funny. Like, it's like, it's like, like, you know, sometimes it's like, they sort of pick, okay, “I'm going to take her this from her, but I take that from him, I think I'm going to take that one from the paternal grandmother”, you know, like, you notice these little quirks and these little characteristics, and it's like, wait, you barely spend time with this person. Like how, how have you, you know what I mean? Carly Grubb: Yeah. Yeah. Even things like facial expressions and things like that. We've found that like, you can just see these resemblances crop up and it's like, “Hey, you really look like your uncle right there”. Like it's. Yeah, definitely. Genetics, impressive stuff. Anyway, we're getting very close to the end of the episode, so I was wondering if you would be very happy to share a tip with our listeners that you wish you could share with the world. I guess. Dionne Davis: So my, my tip would be trust yourself and trust your biology. And I mean, that's part it's, it's sorta the same thing. You know what I mean? We were programmed, like we know what to do, you know what I mean? and, and, and, and it's based upon survival. It's, it's, it's, it's based, it's, it's, you know, it's ingrained and I think we all need to trust that little voice because it really won't go wrong and it really won't do your child wrong if you trust that voice, you know, because there there's innate knowledge that we all possess, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's wary, in most cases in our age, in our, in our society, you know, but it's there and, you know, to dig and find it and listen to it. Carly Grubb: I love that. And I do agree with you ‘cause sometimes it can be hard to know, like wade your way through it, the layers that can be piled in on top, but usually if something's feeling wrong inside in your heart and in your gut, you're usually going to be right, aren't you? It’s just the way things are Dionne Davis: Like, before, before all of this modern stuff, you know, you had to, you didn't have anything else. You didn't have Google, you didn't have a phone, you didn't have a car, you didn't have, you know what I mean? So, so yeah. So we have to get back to that. Carly Grubb: I think so. And it's also a matter of having some decent role models around you too. I think like having other people to be able to normalize things like breastfeeding and bed-sharing and the nurturing of children, actually being able to see it, and, and the value of it is a hugely important part of being able to shut out the other noise. ‘Cause that's the thing, isn't it, we're all just looking for some kind of connection and guidance with other parents around us, and if all we get that other information, it's hard to know. Yeah. It's, it's hard to shut that off, I guess. Dionne Davis: Absolutely. I mean, you, you do need that validation, but I think that that's another thing we need to do. We need to self-validate, you know what I mean? Like we know like, and just trust ourselves, like, like, yeah, we need, we need the community, we need the village, but, but we need to be able to say, wait, I know I'm right. I know this is right. You know what I mean? Carly Grubb: Absolutely. Especially because it's kind of like, you know, as much as we might need those things, sometimes we still can't have them. And to still then be able to see ourselves as worthy and valuable for the work that we're putting in. You can give yourself that you, you are able to give yourself that without anybody else doing it for you Dionne Davis: A hundred percent. I love that. Yep, exactly. Carly Grubb: Excellent. Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on Dionne and after all of our tech troubles and whatnot, I'm just so glad we got to hear your voice and your wisdom. And, uh, if you, and for anyone who's listening along, Dion is one of my favourite people to follow on Instagram. She always keeps the feed nice and mixed up. And so, is there anywhere else we can find you, Dionne? Dionne Davis: I started a Patreon, but it's, it's in its infancy, but I'm going to get it. I'm going to, I'm going to get it on, on, I'm going to get it going and I'll put it in my, um, in my bio on Instagram. I have, I have a Facebook page, a personal blog page, I guess, as they call it. But that's just basically my Instagram. So, you know, Instagram is really where most of it is, but, soon I'm going to start, uh, saving my really good stuff for the Patreon and just sort of saying, you know, new post on a Patreon and giving a teaser and then you can go and get the scoop. Carly Grubb: That's so cool, and when you, once you actually have it up, just shoot me through the link and I'll add it to our show notes for this episode. So whenever people listen to the episode, they can find it in there, that’d be fantastic. So thank you so much for your time. You're an absolute gem and I look forward to speaking to you again sometime soon. Dionne Davis: Please do. Absolutely. Yes. I love it. Thank You Carly Grubb: You. Thank you. And thank you, everybody for listening along for today's episode. Thank you. Bye. Carly Grubb: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. 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