Podcasts Greer Kirshenbaum PhD on parenting a preemie baby, how to find rest when you need it, and how expectations can shape our experience Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Join Carly and Greer as they discuss parenting a preemie baby, and the safe sleep information that is available, sleep hygiene, how to find rest even when you can't find sleep, and how our expectations around sleep shape our experience of what is or isn't a problem. You can find Greer on her website (https://www.nurtureneuro.com/), on Instagram, and Facebook. Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and this week on our episode we welcome Dr Greer Kirschenbaum. Greer is a neuroscientist, an infant and family sleep expert, and a doula, just because, you know, all those things work together so beautifully. And she has a passion that is actually transforming many lives around the world right now through her work on Nurture Neuroscience. I have long been a fan of Greer’s work on Nurture Neuroscience. She’s got Facebook pages, Instagram pages, and an amazingly informative website, because Greer really appreciates that early life experience in pregnancy, birth and infancy really has so much power in shaping a baby’s brain. So, thanks for coming on the show, Greer. Greer:Thank you so much for having me, Carly. I have to say, in the very beginning of my work in this area too the Beyond Sleep Training Project was like one of these things I was like, you guys and Tracy Cassels, I was like, yes! There’s people doing this amazing work. Listen to Dr Tracy Cassels' episode Carly:Yay. Greer:So, you were so … Carly:Was that before… Greer:… inspirational to me in the beginning. Carly:I was going to… so, were we… were we around when you had your first babe? Or did that kind of…? When did you have your baby? Greer:… It was…. I start… I was working in a lab, and now I think I just had my six year anniversary of leaving, and it was sort of towards the end where I was looking forward to what I was going to do next. And I just, you know, was always so interested in helping mental health in populations, and the early life work is so strong and so convincing, and everyone around me was having a baby. And I was like, nobody knows about this stuff, and… and that was my inspiration. I was like, I need to just write a book. That was like my first thing. I was like, I need to write a book and tell everyone about all this information. And so, I am finally writing it. Carly:Yay. Greer:Very excited about it. But that, yeah, that led me into doing tons of research where I found out what doulas were and then trained as a doula, but also, you know, followed… followed you and your work that whole time as well. So… Carly:Awesome. Greer:So, yeah. Carly:Well, we…. We’re actually going to hear a bit more about your story and how you came to handle sleep with your little family. But do you mind, just before we dive right into that, just letting us know a little about… bit about who’s in your family? Greer:Yeah, for sure. So, it’s me and my husband, Josh, and our little son, Ocean, who is now 3 years old. And our other fur baby, Cthulhu, who is a little 5-year-old, fluffy, white dog. Carly:Lovely. God, you have the fur babies in the mix as well. Beautiful. And you guys are in Canada, aren’t you? Greer:Yeah, so we’re in Canada now and, yeah, loving it. Loving it. We’re close to our family. From the beginning of my… my baby’s life, he was born in Los Angeles, we were living there for a while. So, we were… yeah, so we started our family without our close families nearby. But now we have our families close, which is really, really nice. Carly:Amazing. Greer:Yeah. Carly:And can you tell us how did you think you were going to approach sleep before you had your baby? Greer:Yes. So, me, myself and my brother were both very, very high needs babies. So, my mum is forever changed by that experience and just doesn’t like, you know, any time she has a chance to talk about me as a baby it’s the sleep stuff. Right? It’s like, Greer would only sleep on me. Sometimes she’d sleep in a swing. I’d maybe sleep on my grandmother too. And you know, I’d sleep for 20 minutes periods as a young baby, wake up every 20 minutes. [5:00] And my brother was really similar too. So, that story made… and so my mum, you know, and my dad’s side of the story was we had a crib but Greer never slept in the crib. Not even once. So, we did bed share and I also chose to leave my parents bed when I wanted. I remember that. I remember leaving. My brother had been born and there was four of us in the bed, and I remember this night, I think I was around 6 - my mum says 8, but I think I was closer to 6 - where I was like, there’s no space in here. Like, later. Like, bye. I need my own space. Sleep and temperament Carly:See ya. Greer:And I remember going into my own bed and feeling like the cool sheets, and there was like so much space, and I loved it. Carly:Starfish in the middle Greer:Yeah, exactly. I was like, ‘Wow, this is amazing.’ And… and you know what? I did actually, you know, always go back and sleep with my parents on occasion as I grew up, even all the way up to university. But the baby stories, that was like… that was what I expected, because my mum, it was… you know, the story has been told countless times and I was like, okay, I’m going to probably have a baby like that. Carly:I’m going to be up for that. Greer:I’m probably going to have a baby like that. And so, so yeah, I was lucky that I came from that approach. Like, I was, you know, sort of prepared. I knew that babies could be that way. And… and then, you know, like I said, I was doing all of that research as I was leaving the lab, and then I still want to remember when I found out about sleep training, but I… I know at that point I was like, wow, this is not, you know, going to happen. Absolutely not going to happen and does not go along with, you know, helping a baby’s brain grow the way I, you know, wanted. And, you know, or least put… put it… would put it at risk. Right? Based on the research that I was looking at. So… so, yeah. And then I kind of got like, I was worried about being an activist in sleep because it was so heated. Right? it was so heated. But I did help a lot of friends at the time with their babies, and that was also really helpful to sort of plan what I was going to do for a lot of… a lot of ways. Like, a lot of my best friends were having babies at the time. So, you know, they would ask me and I was like, let’s figure this out. Right? Like let’s, you know… you know, figure out how a couple can help their baby without sleep training. And that’s kind of how I, yeah, planned my own kind of plan as well. So yeah, I was like I’m not getting a crib. I’m going to bed share and… and be responsive. That was… that was always my plan. Yeah. Carly:I love that. So, you sound like you were pretty prepped. Like, you had some realistic versions of how things could go, perhaps even more like the… like dramatic little sparklers, that’s what you sound like you actually were as a baby yourself as well. So, that’s… that’s a pretty good preparation. But how did it actually go when you welcomed your son? Normal infant sleep Greer:Yeah. So… so, it was not what I had expected because… Carly:Is it ever? Greer:Not at all. Yeah, so I was not as I expected. I was not expecting to have a premature baby. I did have a premature baby. My son was born at 34 weeks. And we brought him home and I was like, oh, I did not prepare for this at all. And, you know, I’m so happy to have the opportunity to talk about it with you because the resources for families who have a premature baby and have a baby who can’t sleep without contact, which my son was, it does… they don’t exist basically. Right? Like, James McKenna book… book I read and it was like, it’s really not a good idea to bed share with a premature baby, and that was pretty much the only thing I read. So, we did set up… my son had his own little sleep surface right beside me in the beginning, and I was able to just like have my body right up to it and like have my hand on it, because he would just inch over, you know, to the side. It was like a mesh side. And… and then by the time he was… and then there was no endpoint. So, like to… [10:00] to say, oh, when might it be, you know, safe to have him in bed? And it, you know, when he was around term it just wasn’t even sustainable to have him beside me. He had to be sleeping like really, really close. And so, I was just like, I’m accepting all the risk and going ahead with this. Carly:I think that’s the thing too, because I think that’s something for people listening along at home. When it comes to the safer sleep research and the recommendation around risk reduction, they are based on what is known in current research. But the problem with current research is that there’s still lots of unknown things and areas that require further study to be able to actually fully understand, and premature babies is one of those areas. So, there’s lots of grey spots in there where advice has to be given because on what is actually known it shows that there is an increased risk of SUDI for a premature baby, but they’re not… there’s not been enough research to be able to fully understand that or to know if there’s an endpoint for it, and if there is an endpoint what that might look like. So, there’s lots of gaps in that. And so, for a family of a premature baby it’s important to understand your risk, like you’ve done, and then you have to also work with the baby that you’ve got. And if you’ve got a little koala baby… Greer:Yeah. Carly:It… it can sometimes just be inevitable that you’re still going to end up sharing sleep, because you can’t physically stay awake all of the time. So, you can have your safe surface prepared, like you did nearby, you can aim to have them sleeping in that separate space, but if you’re going to fall asleep with them, having a prepared, safe surface to do that on is really important. Learn more about risk minimisation for safer sleep Greer:Yep. Yeah. And you… Carly:Thank you… Greer:Yeah. I mean I’m so happy to talk about it, because there aren’t that many places to talk about it. Right? And… Carly:Absolutely. Greer:I think what you guys offer in the… in providing families with a resource for a sidecar bed, that’s… that’s invaluable. Right? I don’t know if anyone else is offering that resource, and that is really important for families who are in that kind of position. But yeah, my… my baby was 100% koala baby. I could not even go to the bathroom. Carly:Without somebody attached. Greer:Without someone attached. Oh yeah. He was on my lap. I would, yeah, I would go to the bathroom, bring him on my lap, go back to bed. Yeah. And so, yeah, we had contact sleep for the entire, you know, beginning of his life all the way up to nearly 8 to 10 months. Naps were all contact naps. I would lie down. In the early days I would have him in the living room and he would, you know, fall asleep on me. And yeah, and then later once he was napping in bed I would have to lie down with him. I… I… I was so productive during those naps. I would have my phone, and I wrote an entire course on my phone during those… during those naps. But yeah, and it was… it wasn’t until a lot later, like 8-10 months, where I could leave him. Right? Otherwise he would be waking up within 5-10 minutes. And in the early part of the night I would put him down in bed and he’d… oh, every single night wake up 45 minutes or an hour after every single time. And that’s kind of like when I would go to sleep. Like, I would put him down, you know, do my night time things and then that wake up I would, yeah, that would be it. Carly:That’s literally how my life was too. Greer:Yeah. Carly:They didn’t… not all three. There was definitely patches of that, and that was my time… as soon as I’d get the baby down I’d jump in the shower so that I could guarantee I got a shower, and my husband would be on listen out for baby duty while I had a big, long, hot shower. Greer:Yep. Carly:And then I’d have my ‘jamas on and whenever they would wake that next wake, that’s when I would go to bed, which was usually pretty soon after, just like yours. Greer:Yep, yep. Carly:But it’s a good strategy. It helps you get to bed at a reasonable hour. Greer:Oh yeah, and I needed it. He was still… he… he was always, you know, waking frequently at night as well. You know, at least… you know, at least two to four times, you know, in the early days. And actually probably all the way up until… till the… till the end. Now he’s sleeping through the night nearly. Like, he wakes up, you know, here and there. We’re still bed sharing. But yeah, I would feed him, yeah, all the wakes. And he did, yeah, he did wake up, you know, pretty regularly until about two-and-a-half. [15:00] Carly:Yep. Greer:Yeah. Carly:I think that’s… it’s fairly typical around that age. So, with feeding, you were breastfeeding at night? Greer:Yep. Carly:Excellent, and so with your… did you find that learning to feed lying down was a skill you had to master? Or did it come easily for you? Greer:Yeah, it was really hard. It was really hard. So, I didn’t… also because my son was premature I had like really deliberate feeds in the beginning, in the first, you know, two, three months. So, I would like sit… I would either like get up and like go into a chair, because I was like had to focus on feeding so much and like, you know, latch and position and all that stuff. And then from there it turned into just sitting up in bed. And then I think it was about four months, and I would… I would experiment with… with side lying feeding, and then it was about four months when it started to work. Carly:It’s hard work, hey? Like, I… I found that each of my baby’s I had to do a slightly different technique to get the hang of it. Like, my third baby was by far the easiest. Like she could just, like you just lay her kind of in that direction and she’d shimmy herself over and she was good to go. Greer:Right. Carly:But I remember my first guy, I had to latch him sitting up, and then lay back with him on my chest, and the like turn him to put him on the side. Greer:Yep. Carly:And that was the only way that I could get him in the… the right position to actually feed. I can’t remember with my second guy. I remember… I know I did something a bit different, but I can’t remember what it was. I just know my third baby, she was the easiest to feed lying down. Greer:Nice. Carly:But, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s a bit of elasta boobs as well by the time you do… Greer:Right. Your milk was probably like, yeah, I know what to do. But yeah. No, I think I… I think that rings a bell for me too. Like… like latching sitting up and then lying baby down and then getting myself down. Carly:Trying to shimmy, yeah. Greer:Yeah. And then after that it worked quite well. But… and then… and then I was still having to do, I would feed on one side and then I would put the baby on the other side to feed on the other side. Then I learned the technique of feeding on both sides on the same side. Carly:Oh, I am so jealous. I could never do that. My boobs are too small. So they wouldn’t like, I’d have to like pretty much be laying on top of them if I wanted to get that top boob down there. But… Greer:Yep. Carly:Yeah, I’ve heard… I’ve heard of people doing that. Sounds amazing. Greer:Yeah. So, that worked great. Carly:I’ve seen people doing that with their twins too. Like parents with multiples. Like figuring out how to do a side stack. Like wow, that is awesome. Greer:I know. That’s a beautiful thing. Carly:It’s like next level parenting skills right here. Greer:Yeah. That was key. Because then, yeah, I really barely woke up. Carly:Yep Greer:You know, for feeds that way. And… what else was I going to say about it? Oh, yeah. I did get a lot of milk blebs from that too, which are like… what’s the other word for a bleb? I think it’s not a clogged duct, but… Carly:It’s when you get like those white marks on your nipple, is it? Greer:That. Carly:Yeah. Yeah. Greer:Yeah. So, I had a lot of those, but I was like, don’t care, I’m still doing this. Carly:I’m sleeping. And were they easy enough to clear? Like, how do you clear a bleb? Greer:Yeah. You kind of just like hot compress. Yeah. Carly:Very good. Greer:Yeah. Carly:And so tell me, like if you’ve got a really frequently waking babe, but you’ve also, you’ve figured out the side lying nursing. Sounds like you really embraced contact napping and things like that. Greer:Yeah. Carly:Did you find you were still having times where you really struggled? Like you were just flat out tired and… and what did you do in those times? Greer:You know what? You know what? I was really committed to my sleep. I like went to sleep at like 8 o’clock often. The early days, like the first like, yeah, two, three months, I was exhausted and my partner was luckily working from home. So, he would also, he would take baby in the morning very often so I could… I would sleep in the morning a little bit. But once I did kind of recover from birth, like once we were in the four or five month, you know, I actually did not have very many days of exhaustion, because I would really be… I mean I was lucky enough I had really flexible work. Like I could write on my phone for work while he was napping. But I would… I was really dedicated. I went to sleep early every single night, like 8 o’clock. It would be crazy if I went to sleep at 10. And I napped. Like, I was, you know, always napping. So, my son and a lot of babies will wake up, you know, for a short period for their first wake, like an hour and a half or so. And I would be so excited for that first nap, and have a really, really good sleep then. [20:00] I don’t know if I usually… if I ever napped twice in a day, but I at least had one really good nap with my son. So, I would either nap that morning nap or an afternoon nap. Yeah. Carly:That’s amazing. So, it was like a really protected kind of thing in your day. Greer:Yeah. Carly:You made a point of being able to nap. Greer:Yeah. Carly:It’s fantastic though, having the flexibility of work to be able to actually do that too, especially while you’ve got a tiny baby. Greer:Yep. Carly:I know for me, I really struggled to nap. Even when I was really exhausted day naps were hit and miss. But I never missed an opportunity to rest. Greer:Yes. Carly:Even if just being able to put my body at rest was equally important. Greer:Yeah. Carly:And sometimes I’d fall asleep, but I didn’t really… I had to get over the pressure of thinking I had to nap, if that makes sense. Greer:Yep. Carly:Like, rest was what I needed to do. And if I fell asleep, awesome. Greer:Yeah. I love listening to Yoga Nidra recordings? Have you heard of them? Carly:No. Greer:So, Yoga Nidra is… the intention is to be at rest, to be… yeah, to be… I don’t know if it’s an active rest, what it’s called. But it’s a really … they’re lovely recordings. There’s a book called Daring to Rest that talks about Yoga Nidra, and the book has recordings online. And I think anybody can access the recordings online. But I had that book before my son and I loved that tool. It’s a fantastic way to rest. Carly:I think I need to look at that. That sounds amazing. Because I… I definitely am someone who has to work at resting. Because I am very energetic by nature I guess, but it’s more like you get that nervous energy going on and I need to have that downtime and get my brain to slow down. So, that’s amazing. Thank you for the tip. Greer:That was a great tool. I will say too, you know, there… I definitely had a, like I said, a handful of days where I was just completely exhausted. Right? Like, after a night of like an extra amount of wakings. And I also was… also felt lucky because I would be able to fall back asleep really easily. Like, I would be able to wake up and fall back to sleep really, really easily. But sometimes that didn’t happen. And I think my best tip for myself during that time was like this day, nothing has to happen on this day. Right? Like… Carly:You’re allowed to write some of them off, hey? And that can be the best use of time. Take all pressure off. Today is a write off. Greer:Yeah. Carly:Recovery day. Greer:Completely. Carly:And that’s absolutely worthwhile. Greer:Yeah. Carly:No, that’s fantastic. Yeah. No, I definitely had plenty of those ones. I think it’s important for people to know even when you’ve got all of your sleep well taken care of you’re still going to have days where you are exhausted. Greer:Yeah. Carly:And it’s okay to take those downtimes, especially while your babes are busy growing and needing you a lot at night as well. Did you notice any particular patches were really rough for your guy? Greer:So, the biggest patch was age 2, at 24 months it was woah. Woah, woah, woah. It was… it was like… I don’t know if it’s because I’ve been supporting sleep for two years and I’m like hoping that it’s like we’re close to like… Carly:What is going on here? Greer:But it was wild. It was like waking up in the middle of the night like, okay, I’m up. You know, at all the wakings. And I would have to like wrestle him down, like it’s still night time. Like, let’s relax. So, it was like a whole thing. And… and then my son was like resisting naps, resisting bedtime. He was feeding… my… I love my, one of my friends. We have babies who have the same age and… and she texted me once. She was like, is your son feeding like a newborn right now? I was like, that’s the best way to say it. Yeah, so much breastfeeding. And yeah, and sleep was tricky. Sleep was tricky. Oh yeah, also like 5am wakings, which had never happened before. So, it was like… Sleep and development Carly:Oh, brutal. Greer:Waking up in the middle of the night, like let’s go play! And 5am wakings. Yeah, it was…. Carly:Wow. Greer:Yeah. Yeah. That was the hard part. Carly:And how did that end? Greer:It eventually faded away. It lasted… I think it lasted about, I’ll say like maybe six weeks. It was a whole summer. It was last summer. It was a whole summer of it. Carly:Wow. Yeah, and I bet like the sun being up late and coming up early, it also assists. I know I find that with my guys. Like, the get sparrows on, particularly my oldest. He’s really… I think he’s solar powered. Greer:Yeah. Carly:If there’s any… Greer:Yeah. Carly:… hint of sunshine around and he’s up. Greer:That was it. It was late bedtime, [25:00] early to rise, it was… Carly:Yeah. There you go. It’s really interesting because I feel that also speaks to the fact that what is a tough period is very individual. Like, we do see clusters of times that seem to be quite challenging for families, but I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve met anyone yet who hasn’t had a tough spell at some point. Greer:Yeah. Carly:With their little person. So, yeah. It’s interesting. So, if you… if you wouldn’t have called the four month one your rough one, but the two-year-old one was there. Greer:Yep. Carly:Maybe people with the four month one can hold out some hope that the two-year-old might give them a miss. Greer:Exactly. Exactly, yeah. I was so lucky. I mean, you know what? It’s so interesting too to bring that up because the expectations are so important. I would say my son was an amazing sleeper as a baby. Right? And that meant he was attached to me 100% of the time, woke up, you know, every… about every, you know, as a newborn like every three, four hours. Not four hours. He’d never make it four hours. Like, about two to three hours. But for me that was amazing because I knew it was normal, and there was no… it was just easy. I would feed him, put him… lie him down, and that was it. I didn’t have to do all the things my mum had to do, like pace the halls, constantly take baby for drives to sleep. Right? Like, I knew how… how much could be… Carly:Harder. Yeah. Greer:Exactly. And I was like, oh, this is, ah just… Carly:Fine. Greer:Sleep with him beside me and feed him every few hours. Great. He sleeps great. So that’s interesting to, yeah. Carly:It’s… it’s very true though, and I think that’s another thing to keep in mind when people are talking about whether their baby’s a good sleeper, a bad sleeper or are they having problems with sleep. It’s all so very personal about what people interpret to be a problem, what isn’t a problem, what’s a good sleeper, what’s a bad sleeper. And it can really vary I guess as your expectations grow and change too, because I know that how I would have explained my third babies sleep compared to my first baby’s sleep would be vastly different because I knew what I was expecting from her versus what I thought I should be expecting from him. Greer:Yeah. Carly:So, my reporting was really different. But yeah. Now, I’ve just looked at the time and I can’t believe it, we’re already coming up to our half an hour for the episode, and so I’d love to hear do you have a tip you’d like to share with our listeners to… so they can get some ideas from you? Greer:Yeah. So, I think my best tips, and what helped me the most and what I think helped parents the most is like to know that you’re going to get frustrated, you know, with sleep. It’s… it’s hard. It’s, you know, it’s a hard road but it’s also pretty short. Once it’s over, once you’re on the other side you’re like, okay. I did that. That was great. But I think having tools to… in the moment to, you know, to process your feelings about it in the moment, I feel like that’s my biggest tip. And so, yeah, thinking to those, you know, like, oh, baby woke up again. Or, oh, I put them down 20 minutes ago and now they’re up. Right? Like those… those really intense feelings that can come up with about frustration and anger, sadness about how baby’s sleeping. And I think the tools can be different for everyone, so that would be my tip, is like find something that helps you feel better. So, for me it was taking some deep breaths and, you know, having some really nice like big, belly breaths and thinking like, you know, I look at my baby like they need me right now and I am, you know, I felt really, really lucky to be that person for my baby. And so I could return to that, and that helped me. But I think there’s, you know, there’s a range of things that help people in those moments. But I think figuring out how to get through those is… is really, really helpful.. Carly:Absolutely, and knowing that feeling frustrated and angry is, like it’s normal and like you’re human. Of course you’re going to feel those things. But it doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong, and it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything wrong with your baby either. So, it’s those feelings can sometimes make people feel like they need to urgently… sorry, I’ve got a fly buzzing me. Feel like they need to urgently take some action to fix things. But it’s okay just to have an uncomfortable feeling and not really need to do anything differently. Greer:Yep. Yep. Feelings, uncomfortable feelings, if you kind of just close your eyes and breathe through them and feel them they last a couple of minutes long. If you latch onto them. [30:00] and then start like, you know… Carly:Building onto it. Greer:I’m holding onto it, then it lasts a lot longer. That’s another thing to know. Yeah. Carly:Yeah. No, that’s a fantastic tip and I do think that’s a really important part of the mindset of actually working our way through sleep with our babes and not catastrophising I guess when things get tough, because it’s feel… it can really feel like you need to do something, and it’s really nothing to be done at all. You’re already doing all the things you need to do, and it will be okay. And it’s not always going to be like that. Your baby won’t always need you that intensely. Greer:Yes. Carly:It all passes by. Greer:Yes. Carly:Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Greer. It’s been wonderful hearing your story. And I’m hope… would you be able to, before you go, let us know where can we find you and your fabulous work? Greer:Yeah. I think the best place to find me is on Instagram at Nurture Neuroscience Parenting. And I have a new website coming out really soon, so we’ll have a link to that from my Instagram, and I believe it will be nurtureneuroscience.com. Yeah. Nurture Neuroscience website Carly:Beautiful. Greer:Yeah. Carly:Well, we’ll make sure we have all that in the show notes, and if we… if we need to change anything down the track make sure you let us know so people can, anytime they listen to this episode they’ll be able to find you. Greer:Yeah, sure. Carly:And you also, you’re busy writing a book. Greer:Yes. Carly:Is that on the horizon? Or we’ve got a while to wait for that one to come out? Greer:We have a little bit of time to wait for that one. Probably a year and a half or so. But I’m very excited to share, you know, what I wanted to share right from the beginning on this journey with families. I just, my… you know, my wish is for all families to really understand how incredible the infant brain is and how much our nurturing care and responsiveness shapes our babies’ brains. Carly:Beautiful. I can’t wait to read. But thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. And for everybody, you can find all those links in our show notes today. And if you’ve enjoyed our show we’d love for you to join us as a patron on Patreon where we can get you into one of our private Facebook groups and you can join the conversation with some bonus exclusive content there as well. Alright. Thanks so much for coming on Greer. Looking forward to seeing what you’re up to next. Thanks Bye. Greer:Bye. Carly: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. 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