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SUMMARY- Join Carly and Kate discussing letting go of watching the clock, breastfeeding in the carrier, bed-sharing, natural term weaning, and when things feel a bit hard, being kind to yourself.

Full Episode Transcript: 

Carly:

The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. 

I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children.  

Carly:
And welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. This week’s guest is one of my favourite people on the internet. It is Kate Sillars, who you are most likely to know as Mrs Mombastic. She’s funny and frank and I love her honesty and, oh, she’s been honestly one of my favourite people that I follow just for keeping me entertained, but also just keeping it real. So, thank you Kate for coming along.

Kate:
Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you. What an introduction. That’s very cool. Thank you.

Carly:
No, it’s been awesome, because sometimes it’s like – I know when I was first doing online stuff it almost felt a little bit lonely being like the person talking about, you know, parenting with the bed sharing and breastfeeding and things like that. There actually wasn’t that many of us talking about our own personal experiences. So, when you sprung up it was just like, Yay! And then when you were also, it was double Yay! It’s been fantastic. So, what brought you to the online space, Kate?

Kate:
What, in the first place? What brought about Mrs Mombastic?

Carly:
Mm.

Kate:
It’s been quite a journey really. It actually started out as a fitness blog, and it was me sharing videos of me working out with my daughter in a baby carrier, and using exercise as a form of, you know, to help with mental health, to help mothers with postnatal depression. That’s how it started. And then it grew into something very, very different.

Carly:
And so, when you, when you first had your little girl… your first baby’s a girl, isn’t she? Yeah, sorry. I’m just…

Kate:
Second. Second’s a girl. First boy, second girl.

Carly:
First boy, second girl. Sorry, getting it right for you. So, when you were having your first baby, did you have any idea about how you were planning to parent, particularly around sleep at all?

Kate:
I was very, very sure that he was going to be breastfed 6-months. That was, that would be it. He’d be in his own cot. I wasn’t going to have him… I wasn’t going to be wrapped around his little finger. He wasn’t going to control me. I was going to be the one in control. And yeah, I had very different ideas to the route I ended up going down.

Carly:
So, tell us, so when he arrived was it like an instant shock? Or did you have a bit of a… a honeymoon period with him?

Kate:
No. Actually no, I did. So, the first 6-weeks he slept really well, but he didn’t take to breastfeeding very easily. It was a real, real struggle. And he would just cry all the time. He refused to latch. So, the only way I could get him to latch on would be by rocking him to sleep, which would take hours sometimes, and then when he was asleep he’d then latch on. And he’d be screaming. And I’d take him to the… I took him to the doctor’s I can’t even tell you how many times. And they’re like, ‘Well, you know, he’s putting on weight. Everything’s fine. So, you’re obviously doing something right.’ And I was exhausted. I was miserable. And I just remember thinking, well, there’s something not quite right. And I took him to… And then the… and then the not sleeping started. So, the rocking all day then turned into rocking him all day and all night. So, I’d be up at 3 o’clock in the morning singing, rocking, getting him back to sleep, letting him latch on. And I think eventually we got to about 6-months and my mother had been saying go to your local La Leche League go to your local La Leche League. And I kept saying, ‘No, no, no, no. I’m going to be fine. I’m going to be fine. I’m going to get him in his cot and everything’s going to be great.’ And it was there at the - eventually I listened to my mother and went to the La Leche League, and they showed me some different positions. It was within a day, 24-hours, he was then latched on properly. [5:00] I had a strong letdown, so I just needed to work out how to, you know, get him to feed using gravity. So, I’d be lying on my back, and he latched on beautifully and… But then we started to think, okay, well now he needs to be going into his own room, he needs to be in his own cot. And we started sleep training at that point, or I attempted to sleep train at that point.

Carly:
And how did it actually go for you?

Kate:
It was awful. It was really awful. And I remember thinking this just doesn’t feel right. And it was actually my husband, well, my ex-husband now, but we were very much  on the same page parenting-wise. I was very lucky really with the people around me. And he was very, very supportive, and he was the one that said, ‘If this doesn’t feel right then what are we doing? Why are we doing this?’ And it was then that I said, ‘Okay, we’ll bring him into… bring him into our bed.’ And then that was, you know, flopping about and he’d latch on, and everyone would sleep. I actually had a next to me cot at that… we ended up, he was the one who modified the cot, took the sides off, made it so that it was the same height as the bed and pushed it into the… pushed it onto the bed. And that’s… that’s how we all ended up sleeping.

Carly:
And did you get some more sleep when you started bed sharing like that?

Kate:
Oh. It was just… it was then life altering. Just going from fighting it. We were, I was fighting everything all the time. It was everything was a battle from, you know. And then it was the same with everything, with potty training, with everything. I just, everything was a battle. I was like, ‘No, this. You have to be potty trained. No, you have to wean.’ Like off the breast, ‘No, you have to sleep in your own bed.’ It was only when I started going with it, I was like, oh, they all get there eventually.

Read more about breastfeeding and sleep

Carly:
And you started to find your groove.

Kate:
You don’t necessarily have to be in this battle. When you work together… yes, exactly. Did. I did start to find my groove. And then, yeah. And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to meet milestones, to, you know, thinking, oh, they need to be in their own bed. Or, oh, they should have stopped breastfeeding by now. Or, they should be potty trained, or they should be eating more food. Why not just follow their lead and let them show us what they… when they’re ready to do it. Because they will. They’ll get there eventually.

Learn more about sleep and development

Carly:
They really do. And so, when you… So, you started the bed training at night, and that was obviously going to give you a whole lot more rest. What was happening during the day at this stage?

Kate:
Yep. Sorry?

Carly:
How was like day napping and things like that being handled at that stage?

Kate:
On me. On me.

Carly:
And how did you feel about it? Were you able to relax into it? Or was it something that you found challenging?

Kate:
I actually, I didn’t mind it. I was okay. I know that some people, do… did find it hard. I actually found it much harder second time round, having a baby that wanted to nap on me all the time, because then I had a toddler that was destroying everything in the house and running round and taking up toys, and the washing up would be piling up, and it was definitely much harder second time round to relax with a baby that didn’t want to go down.

Carly:
Did you find babywearing was helpful for you at any stage?

Kate:
Yep. Exactly that. Babywearing. That was what got me through. And I remember I’d be taking my son into pre-school, and I’d literally just have my daughter in a sling. She’d be feeding, my boob would be out, she’d be feeding. I had a scarf over her head so that people couldn’t see. And I remember people would joke about the fact, oh, we’d even go to our local pub and have a bowl of chips. She’d still be in the sling, scarf over, and people would joke that they didn’t believe that I even had a baby. They just say, well, surely there’s no… you know, we haven’t even seen this child for like the first, probably year of her life. She was just thrown in the sling…

Carly:
You were like the feet are there, and she’s… she’s quiet because she’s got boob going on.

Kate:
I know.

Carly:
That’s awesome.

Kate:
And people would come over and go, ‘Ooh, can I see?’ and they’d lift up the scarf and go, ‘Oh, oh, oh.’ Yep. Yeah, there’s a boob out there. So, sorry.

Carly:
I’m so impressed you’ve managed to do the baby-wearing and the boob thing. I could literally, 3 kids and, you know, I can’t imagine how many hours if you tallied up with babies either on the boob or baby-wearing, and I never mastered the baby-wearing boob. So, impressive. Very impressive.

Kate:
I… I had… I had massive boobs back then. There’s an…

Carly:
Assisted.

Kate:
There’s an ongoing joke, so they were manoeuvrable. I could literally [10:00] move them into any – like I could have one literally in the centre. Like a cyclops, but with a boob in the middle. And the… now, the – I’ve been left – there’s an ongoing joke in my family that the kids ate my boobs, because there’s not a lot left now.

Carly:
That’s awesome.

Kate:
After 5-years of breastfeeding they’ve pretty much left me with just flaps of skin now.

Carly:
Oh dear, the things that happen, hey?

Kate:
I know.

Carly:
And so, with your very wakeful little fellow, once you were bed-sharing with him did you find like his amount of waking, or time he spent awake varied much? Or did he stay very wakeful for long?

Learn more about safer sleep

Kate:
Do you know what? I made a pact with myself, because I was constantly counting how many times he woke up. I’d speak to my friends, and I’d go, ‘Oh god, he woke up 6 times last night.’ I was forever keeping track of how many times he woke up. And I got to a point I was like, this isn’t helping me. So, I just decided to… So, I don’t really know if I’m honest. I completely said I’m just going to go with it. I’m not going to… Sorry, complain is probably the wrong thing to say because I know that we all need to have someone that we can complain to, but I just tried my hardest to not focus on it too much I guess. And it didn’t become such a big thing. I just tried to stay as asleep as possible, as calm as possible. I would never look on my phone. I made sure that night-time was literally just for sleeping. And so, I don’t… I don’t know.

Carly:
Well, that just sounds perfect in terms of sleep hygiene. And it’s such a… it is such a great mental strategy.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
I know that was a massive game changer for me.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
Like even… I could still probably quantify how like, you know, if it was a… a really crappy night or, you know….

Kate:
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Carly:
…a good one. But that was about the level of…

Kate:
If they were ill.

Carly:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Or teething. You know. There were definitely patches that were very obvious. But yeah, it does, it makes a huge difference. I think it’s a really important strategy to have up your sleeve to know that you don’t actually have to count and keep track. You really can just not.

Kate:
No, and…

Carly:
And…

Kate:
And I’d drive myself insane thinking, ‘Okay, what did he do last night? Why did he sleep so well?’ And then I’d try and replicate that exact sleep, like you know, whatever, method. And then he’d wouldn’t sleep the next night. I’d be like, ‘What the fuck is going on?’ So, it was a constant…

Carly:
Oh yeah. And you thought you’d cracked the code.

Kate:
Sorry, I’m swearing. Is that…? Sorry.

Carly:
That’s alright. There’s a little button I can turn on to say that there’s like swear words in there, so it’s okay.

Kate:
Oh good.

Carly:
Yeah, no. I get that.

Kate:
Sorry.

Carly:
But it’s totally relatable for that. When would you say, like was it sort of well like into his second year? Or when was it noticeable that he was starting to sleep a bit more independently, even if he was still in with you?

Kate:
So, this is – it threw a curve ball because I fell pregnant, and when he was… I don’t think he was even two. So, I was still breastfeeding him when I was pregnant, and my milk dried up, which happens. It’s common when you fall pregnant. Your milk dries up. But they… sometimes they then wean themselves, or sometimes they carry on feeding, and it’s a very uncomfortable, horrible thing. And I experienced nursing aversion and things like that, because it’s really not, not nice having a child feeding when you haven’t got any milk. It’s uncomfortable and… But I knew that he needed it, so I continued. And his sleep went absolutely phew… Absolutely went downhill even further because, like he was probably getting frustrated, bless him, because I didn’t have milk. He was probably sensing my anxiety. I was exhausted. It was hell. It was absolute hell. And then when my daughter came along it… oh, I don’t think I’ve ever felt that tired and exhausted. I was too tired to eat at points. I was… it was… it was horrific.

Carly:
And so, when… so, you were breastfeeding both of them, like tandem once second baby got here?

Kate:
Yeah. Mm.

Carly:
Wow. So… so, how would you describe that experience?

Kate:
I have to be brutally honest here, but I really hated it. I really hated it. I found it hard, really tough. But my son ended up weaning himself probably about 6-months in, and then I had a wonderful breastfeeding relationship with my daughter, my second born. [15:00] But it was that sudden shock of having a newborn baby, and then this massive toddler. Suddenly his head seemed really big, and he was, there were jealousy issues of course. So, he wanted to have more of my attention, which is again why I carried on doing it. But it wasn’t… it was really hard work. Feeling very touched out and… but um…

Carly:
I think that’s really important.

Kate:
I’m glad I did it, I did it like that.

Carly:
Oh there, yeah, see. Thank you for sharing it, because I feel like it’s one of those things where it’s like you have to… people need to hear these full spectrum of stories and experiences when it comes to the different nursing experiences we all have. And they’re certainly not all roses. And like there’s certainly some things that, you know, in… in hindsight you might have done differently, but at the time you obviously were doing the things that felt right for you and your babies, even if they were hard.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
But, you know, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t one of the hardest things, or most unpleasant things by the sound of it, that you’ve had to do as well.

Kate:
No. No, I…

Carly:
Do you think you would have done anything differently?

Kate:
No. Uh? Oh, that’s a difficult one. I’m going to say no, I don’t think I would have done. I’m glad that everything happened as it did. I’m going to say something that I hope I don’t live to regret, because my mum will be listening and say, ‘I told you so.’ But I wish I’d listened to my mother more.

Carly:
Don’t we all.

Kate:
I can’t… Because if I’d listened to her earlier on, she… she’s always been like, she was a La Leche League leader for sort of 20-years or so, and she was really hardcore attachment parent, gentle parent. It all came much more naturally to her than it ever did to me. And I think one of the reasons that I probably fought it so much was because of her in the background going, ‘No, this is what you need to do. You need to bring him into your bed.’ No!

Carly:
Wow.

Kate:
I think it was um… just me. Yeah.

Carly:
Isn’t that interesting.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
So, it’s still, it’s almost like the… a little bit like a rebellious spirit maybe as well, like trying to carve your own path maybe? Do you think?

Kate:
It’s… it’s funny, because when I started the blog the amount of people that spoke to me and said, oh, you know, my parents won’t support me.

Carly:
Yeah?

Kate:
And I’ve been criticised by my family, and blah blah blah. And I was always like, ‘I’ve got the exact opposite. I’ve been so blessed.’ And even I could, I’m from a full attachment parenting family. My grandparents were, my mother is, my brother and his wife are all attachment parents, breastfeeding till natural term, baby-wearing, bed sharing. So, I’m in a very loving… you know. It’s an easy… it’s come easy in a way because it…

Carly:
It’s come easy once you stop fighting it.

Kate:
Once you stop fighting it. Exactly. I was the one that fought it. Everyone else around me was, no, it’s cool, it’s cool. And I was there like, Hoh!

Carly:
I’m going to do this differently.

Kate:
Routine. Strict routine.

Carly:
Do you think it was still because you were probably a bit scared of what it would mean? Like, did you… do you think that’s what it was? Like you thought if you could have a cot sleeper and these kind of things you would somehow avoid… I don’t know.

Kate:
Making a rod for my own back?

Carly:
Yeah. So, like that whole… that whole sleep training dependence culture mindset still got you, even though that wasn’t your actual… Isn’t that interesting?

Kate:
Yeah, it still got me. It still got me. And I find, I do find it all very interesting really, because my mother was also a very gentle parent, and she’s a huge advocate for gentle parenting, attachment parenting. And I hear a lot of people talking about how they get very stressed, and they have anxiety issues because they didn’t have it. They came from very strict backgrounds. And I have the same issues, and I came from a very gentle parenting background. So, whilst I think that that… she gave me wonderful foundations for those early years, you can’t help what happens to you then along the way. What happens in your teenage years, the trauma that comes in. It’s just… it’s inevitable. So, we can just do our best to give them the best foundations like, you know, giving them those early attachments.

Carly:
It’s the things to fall back on, isn’t it?

Kate:
And set them off into the big, wide world, to fall back on. And that’s why I’m such a believer in all of it now, is I think she gave me such a foundation in those early days. So…

Carly:
Wow.

Kate:
You know, I can still remember the breastfeeding.

Carly:
Oh, really? So, when did you wean?

Kate:
Sometimes people are like shocked by… I was 4.

Carly:
Wow. And what are your memories of it?

Kate:
Just the feeling of comfort. I don’t remember the physical act, but I remember the feeling of comfort. I remember asking for it. I remember lying in bed with my mum. [20:00] She held me to sleep until I was probably about 8, 9. And the sound of her heartbeat. And I remember matching my breathing to her breathing, and slowing my breathing down because her breath was always slow and gentle, which is then a method that I use with getting my children to sleep, particularly my son who’s quite… who is also quite anxious. And I use the same methods with him, slowing down my breathing, and it helps so much with getting him off to sleep. But this is I have the same memories of doing it with my mum.

Carly:
That’s incredible. I feel like we need to get your mum on the podcast.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
I’d love to hear her story as well, especially if you’re saying it’s like been a few generations of parenting in this way. Like it’s kind of… we definitely haven’t really had that kind of story to give a bit of the backdrop before, so thank you for sharing it. Hopefully your mum doesn’t mind that we’ve been able to hear about it too, but it’s pretty sweet. Now, I was just…

Kate:
No, she’ll love it. She’s so… she’s proud.

Carly:
She will?

Kate:
She’s so proud of it. Yeah.

Carly:
Oh good. Honestly, I think she sounds fantastic. I mean I’ll have a chat to you when we get off air to see if we can catch her I think, because…

Kate:
Yeah. Yeah.

Carly:
Because I do think that generational thing’s really important, because it add… adds that context too, where it’s like I think sometimes we feel like we’re a bit carving new paths and things like that, but there’s been trailblazing women for generations who’ve been trying to… or some people never went for it, I’m sure, in Western society. And it’s… perhaps it’s even more impressive that they managed to stay away from it. Although I know for us, we have social media to contend with and whatnot, so it’s of…

Kate:
Yes.

Carly:
Information comes at us in different ways now.

Kate:
Yeah. Well, she was very much… whenever we went anywhere, if the topic of breastfeeding came up she would get so aggressive. And she’d go, ‘No, my children were breastfed until they were 4,’ and most people say… And I could never understand why she would take things so personally when people like, ‘Oh, that’s disgusting. Like, why would you do that?’ And I could never understand it. It’s only now as a mother myself, I’m like, ‘Ah, okay. Yeah, now I get why you would get so upset about it.’ So…

Carly:
Yeah, she would have had to defend herself, I’m sure.

Kate:
And actually, when I was pregnant… She did. Yeah, she did. All the time having to defend herself. So, I can understand why she gets so funny about it. But my – what do you call? I suppose birth present from her after having my son was a… a copy of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding, which is a La Leche League book.

Carly:
La Leche League.

Kate:
And she’d written a beautiful, little passage in there for me about how, yeah… And it was like a passing down, a ceremonious passing down onto the next generation of…

Carly:
Oh, I love that. It’s that kind of… that’s like the handing on of wisdom. And I do, like it sounds like she managed to – as much as you said like she was definitely there behind you, prompting you and whatnot – it sounds like she… did she keep that prompting relatively gentle?

Kate:
Yes.

Carly:
Like, it sounds like you eventually kind of came to the conclusion that you needed to do these things yourself.

Kate:
Yep, she did.

Carly:
So, it wasn’t like foisted upon you.

Kate:
No. No. She was very gentle with it all, and she… it’s only now that she’s like, ‘Well, if you’d just listened to me in the first place...’

Carly:
Nah-nah-nah nah-nah-nah.

Kate:
I know. Yes. Yeah, we know, we know.

Carly:
Oh, okay. Well, that is pretty cool. Now, I’m just wondering then, so with your little girl, so you said once your big guy had weaned when she was about 6-months you’re breastfeeding relationship improved. Did you… how was her sleep? Tell us about what sleep looked like with her.

Kate:
She sleeps, that girl, I have never known anyone sleep quite so well. She literally, she asked to go into her own bed. She would… she sleeps through. Even as a breastfeeding toddler, baby, she… she’ll sleep probably 6:30 till 7:30 every single night in her own bed. And my son still gets up to sneak into bed with me now.

Carly:
It just goes to show.

Kate:
So, it just shows how different. And with her – and I never fought it with her. I literally just followed her lead entirely. I just kept her in my bed. She never went to pre-school or anything like that, whereas my son was in childcare from 6-months because I had to go back to work and… And so, I did all of the things that you’re told that you should do with regards to creating independence and blah blah with my son. And he’s the one that’s turned out to be more needy than my daughter who was very much attached to me for the first year of her life. And then she gets… she actually gets upset if I go into bed with her. She’s like, I don’t want you in bed with me. I want my bed to myself.

Carly:
See you, mum. [25:00] Oh, rough. How do you feel about that, mum?

Kate:
No, she’s the firecracker. Quite emotional. Like please…

Carly:
I bet you do.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
Weren’t you only my baby? Oh, I love it. And that variation is just so true, and I hope people listening along are hearing that, because it’s not the way that you are parenting that is making your child wake at all, you are actually just responding to the child that you’ve got.

Kate:
Yep.

Carly:
And you… you just can’t set up these kind of bad habits that people talk about. It’s not what causes your child to wake. It is your best tool to just respond when they do so and get them back to sleep. So, I think that’s really important. Thank you very much for that, Kate.

Kate:
You’re welcome.

Carly:
And I’m just looking at our time, and we’re getting close to the end of our episode.

Kate:
Yep.

Carly:
But before we finish things up I love asking people if they would mind sharing a tip for the week, so something that you would like the listeners to… to take onboard perhaps. What would your tip be?

Kate:
Oh, my goodness me. Um… with regards to sleeping, or…?

Carly:
Yeah, just sleep and managing things with your family.

Kate:
I think just take it as it comes. You know? You can plan and prep and worry until, I mean I… the amount of guilt I’ve felt over the years of, you know, fear of if I lose my temper for example with a child if they’re going crazy, I’d always then be so hard on myself about it. But I think, you know, we’re only human too. As we’re being gentle with our children we also have to be equally gentle with ourselves, and that’s something I’ve always struggled with. I’ve always been quite hard on myself as a parent. And I think the more that you can just let it go and apologise, for example if you lose your temper or if you do something that you think maybe you were a bit out of line, and just go easier on yourself, then the easier you are on yourself, actually it ends up being a domino effect and you end up being far easier on the children too. You don’t have to put all that pressure on yourself and…

Carly:
I think that’s a really…

Kate:
Does that count as a tip?

Carly:
Yeah. I think that’s really good advice, because we are – like people can be so hard on themselves. And I think that’s the thing with this quest to be perfect.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
There’s no such thing as perfect.

Kate:
Yep.

Carly:
And so, it’s kind of…. It’s actually quite a gift to give our kids that.

Kate:
And I think particularly people who… yeah.

Carly:
But for the kids to know that we’re not perfect humans either.

Kate:
And I think particularly people who are gentle as a parent, who consider themselves gentle parents… Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think – I was just going to say – I think it’s a big thing with gentle parents. People who follow a gentle parenting, you know, way of doing things. They’re actually really quite hard on themselves, because they feel like they’re constantly trying to break generational, you know, like the trauma that they experienced as children. But they end up being so much harder on themselves, But I think I’m such a big advocate for being gentle on yourself as well as being gentle on the… on the children.

Carly:
It’s really important I think too.

Kate:
It goes both ways.

Carly:
Because if we’re showing our kids that, you know, the things that our kids learn are from seeing and watching and mimicking. So, if they’re witnessing us being so incredibly hard on ourselves we’re basically passing that along to them as well.

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
So, being… being able to be a bit compassionate and gentle on ourselves, and forgiving of ourselves, it’s a huge gift to give them as well, to know that it’s okay to mess up and say sorry.

Kate:
Yeah. Exactly.

Carly:
Yep.

Kate:
That’s a tool that many adults don’t actually possess. So, it’s definitely a good thing.

Carly:
Absolutely. And… but I think even, even knowing those things, it’s still that, like it’s almost like that then becomes the next thing that we put pressure on ourselves to do better about. So…

Kate:
Yeah.

Carly:
Yeah, I think… we can always find something.

Kate:
Oh god.

Carly:
Anyway. I have really enjoyed talking to you for our episode today, Kate.

Kate:
Yes.

Carly:
And thank you so much for the work that you do online. Mrs Mombastic’s one of my favourite places, like I said at the start.

Kate:
Thank you for having me.

Carly:
And keep being you. Keep being honest. And if people listening along don’t yet follow you, can… we can find you on Facebook and Instagram. Is there anywhere else, Kate?

Kate:
Yep. No, that’s it I’m afraid.

Carly:

Perfect. No, I’ll drop the links to both of those into our show notes so people can find you there. But thanks again for sharing your story.

Kate:
Sure.

Carly:
And I’ll have to chat with you about getting your mum on. Thanks very much for listening everybody.

Kate:
Yes. Oh, she’d love it. Thank you. Bye.

Carly:
Thank you very much. Goodbye. Thank you.

Carly Grubb:

I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. If you'd like even more from the show you can join us as a patron on Patreon and you can find a link for that in our show notes if listening is not really your jam we also make sure we put full episode transcripts on our little sparklers website for you to also enjoy and fully captioned YouTube videos as well on our Little Sparklers channel so thanks again for listening today we really enjoy bringing this podcast to you. 

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“The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast (Podcast) is hosted by Little Sparklers (us, we or our).   

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