Videos and Podcasts Tammy Heuych on gender disappointment, solo parenting, mental health and finding new love Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying this show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Tammy shares her story of coping with a relationship breakdown while 32 weeks pregnant, solo parenting 3 boys, how she managed parenting through depression and gender disappointment, and on to finding the right support and a new partner. Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. And welcome back to The Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and this week I’m welcoming back the wonderful Tammy Heuych, who we had on the last episode, and she’s going to be kindly sharing more of her story of sleep without sleep training. In the last episode we kind of finished up talking, your second baby was quite a challenge. Tammy: Yep, definitely. Carly: But it sounds like you eventually found peace with accepting his high needs for contact and comfort. Tammy: Yep. Carly: And co-sleeping and baby-wearing sound like they were the big saviours in your life with that second babe. And also, you told us about managing to get your family’s head around the idea of moving beyond sleep training as well. So, hats off to you Tammy. That’s no mean feat. So, that really challenging sleeping baby, he’s now five you said? Tammy: Yep. Carly: So, how did things evolve? Like, did he eventually start sleeping more? Is he still quite a low sleep needs babe? Or what’s he like now? Tammy: Oh, surprise, surprise. Probably in the past 12-months he is sleeping through the night and he’s happy as Larry. I breastfed him until he was two-and-a-half. He co-slept until he was three. And even then – so, it’s just before his third birthday we started to transition him into his room - but he still wanted that comfort. So, it’s really only been when he’s four. And also, high needs, high energy. He was four. No, he was three. So, it’s just before his third birthday is when the separation happened, and just before that was when we started to transition him. And he’s… he had quite a close bond with my ex, so the separation was quite traumatic for him. I kind of could see that he was going through that emotional distress, and we began co-sleeping again. Learning what I’ve learnt with Ashton, and being a high-needs bub, I think probably 95% of the time we co-slept with the cot – made the cot into one big bed. My brain is just not functioning. So… Carly: A side-car cot? Tammy: Side-car cot. That’s what I’m looking for. Carly: Yeah. Tammy: And that was a lifesaver for me, because what then became the norm was I would put him into his own space. And then as I started to transition Ashton to – when we stopped breastfeeding – I would sit… lie on the bed, have him in his cot so we knew, you know, creating what his space was. And I would offer him water and offer him my hand to hold to go to sleep. So, that’s how we started doing weaning. It was, you know, the first thing I’d offer was water, then ask him if he wanted to hold my hand, and then if he didn’t want that and he insisted he wanted boob that’s what he’d get. And I found it was a really gentle way for me to transition him. And it was an up and down process, but we got there. Carly: I was going to say, how long did it take? Like, do you think the process from beginning, working on it, through to when he was actually happy about the situation? Tammy: Yeah. It took probably about three months. It was… it was a bit of an up and down process, and I’m glad in a way it happened before the separation. I can’t even remember whether I was pregnant when it was happening or not. Gosh. I would have had to be, because he was two-and-a-half, and there’s three years between him and Lewis. But that’s bizarre that I can’t remember that. Carly: Blanked it out. Tammy: I’ve blanked that period out. Exactly right. But I do remember sitting there and, you know, offering him his water. And it was, you know, times where he would accept the water and then go, [5:00] ‘No, I just want to hold your hand.’ And, you know, he’d do that for a couple of nights and then want boob again. But that, the gap became bigger. And it was just creating that new routine around what I was offering and what he was getting. And for him it was that reassurance that I was still there. So, I found that lying with him until he went to sleep worked, rather than, you know, holding his hand and then walking away. And then after a couple of weeks of doing that – so, it took a couple of months to get him into that – after a couple of weeks I would say, you know, ‘Mummy needs to go to the toilet, I’ll come back.’ So, I’d go to the toilet and come back, and he’d be at that almost sleep point. So, reassuring him and then doing what I said really worked. And then I followed that when I transitioned him into his bedroom. It was the same. I was using the same language and I was saying, you know, ‘I’m going to put you to bed. I’m going to kiss you goodnight. But I’ll come back to check on you.’ And him being awake when I was checking on him created that reassurance that he really needed. Because whilst he’s not an overly affectionate child, he actually has high emotional connection needs. So, it’s very much one way. The relationship is very much one way as he wants me to pour out a lot of affection and emotion into him, but then he’s quite reserved in giving it back. And there’s little times when… when it does happen. Like, this morning I was giving him a cuddle before school, and he was just stroking my arm. And it’s little times like that when I go, ‘Okay, he’s just showing it in a different way.’ And, you know, I can tell he’s appreciative of that, and the difference in behaviour it makes when I’ve actually stopped and listened to what he needs and understood what he needs. But he like, you know, all… those two sleep through the night now. They will get through the odd occasion where they wake up, and they know that my bed is always open to them. Like, my big boy, Xavier, crawled into bed this morning for a cuddle because he woke up at 5 o’clock and I was still asleep. I had a sleep in. I’m going back to work tomorrow. So… It’s nice, and I don’t ever want them to feel like they can’t have that because it’s such a big point of connection for us. But Ashton taught me a lot and certainly gave me… Something that I’d never been good at was letting go. So, learning to let go with Ashton, and learning that I can’t control everything was a really valuable lesson. And then that helped me a lot when I had Lewis. So, I was 32-weeks pregnant when my ex and I separated. We were still living in the same house for a period of time; however, she wasn’t in the house much. Spending time with another person. So, it was quite an high emotional time, because there’s a big change happening with the kids. I was very pregnant, still working full-time in a highly demanding role. I’d got a promotion when I was 4 months pregnant. So, got put into an operations manager role. So, there was a lot of different elements that were going on. So, then I kind of had to collect myself and worked out what was working for the kids, and it became co-sleeping. Again, you know, here I’ve got an almost 7-year-old and almost 3-year-old needing that emotional connection again. So, I’d set up the trundle in my bedroom again. Big boy was lying on that, and Ashton was sleeping in the cot, the side-car cot, because I hadn’t dismantled it because I liked to have it there just in case, you know, something was going on with him. And yeah, I remember going into labour with Lewis and being home with the two boys and both of them rushing to me and realising… I also had quite quick labours. So, with Xavier it was three hours, Ashton it was two. So, Lewis, I’m like, game is on. I had to get… I was luckily in a hospital that was closer to home, because with both the older two it was about a 35-minute drive. So, the hospital was 20-minutes, and I had Lewis within 5-minutes of arriving. For me not having a supportive partner through those first two pregnancies, I was actually quite grateful being able to do things my way completely with Lewis. I went through a lot of anxiety, you know, [10:00] worried that the baby was going to wake my ex up and, you know, try, you know, straight away trying to comfort him and shoving a boob in his mouth to shut him up, because that was what I was getting told to do. So, with Lewis I’ve certainly felt a lot more relaxed. I’ve not… I’ve felt more in tune with him. I’ve felt more connected with him. That’s the baby-wearing. Having a 7-year-old and a 3-year-old, or at the time crazy boy/house/school. So, we’d started school – Xavier had started, he was in Grade 1. So much was going on. To be able to do life, baby-wearing was my norm. And I had a baby carrier with me no matter where I was. I had the pram. Wasn’t too fussed on the pram, I could tell if he was going to be really tired. And working out what my balance was, so I worked out I really needed to be in nature. So, there was times when just in the morning I’d drop the kids off and I would just go for a walk along the beach. And that was just the bit to bring me back to sanity and just allow me to breathe. And just doing things that brought me joy. That was… And being able to do that and realise that bub could do that with me and letting go. So, we spent a lot of time going to cafes where we’d just enjoy the view, and it would just bring that peace to me. So, Lewis certainly taught me that breathing and just relaxing into it was very important. He is quite a wakeful bub, but nothing compared to what Ashton was. So, he’s now two-and-a-half, and he still probably wakes on a good night – which was last night – he wakes probably twice. And he very clearly asks for booby. On a bad night he’ll wake every half an hour, every hour. And I think having had such a high-needs baby in Ashton and learning that I just had to let go, and that it was me that had the problem, not him, has been the best thing for my relationship with Lewis, because I’ve been able to connect in more with him and relax more into it, and I find my day-to-day is more relaxing. If I’ve not had a good sleep at night because he’s been awake every… I’m okay with that, because I know that there’s going to be a balance. His leaps have been quite pronounced, but again not as bad as Ashton. So, co-sleeping, we’ve co-slept since day dot. I think he might have slept in the cradle when I was putting washing out where I had a monitor. I got a monitor for him. That is the only time he’s slept in a cradle. Otherwise, baby-wearing, co-sleeping, that has just been amazing. And having a king-sized bed plus the cot there has just been amazing, having that space to myself. Because he’s also been a bit of a roller. But I think, you know, and his day sleeps, it was… He may have had a few day sleeps where he was just lying in front of, on me while I was watching TV or whatever. I used to have a little basket. I had a little basket with me, next to me when he was a bub, which had nappies and snacks and stuff for me, so I didn’t have to get up. So I think, you know, as the babies have progressed I’ve learnt what I need, and the biggest part was just being, okay, having my phone charged. Carly: Yes. Tammy: Having the remote control close. Carly: Yes, duck for a wee before you sit down. Tammy: Yeah, exactly right. And the amount of times I’ve learnt that you can wee whilst holding a baby. You can also wee whilst breastfeeding. Carly: Skills, people. Tammy: Oh, totally skills. So, what’s just jumped into my mind, I really needed to go grocery shopping and I had all three, and it was Sunday afternoon, and we were totally ratty. I had the carrier. I’d chucked him on the side and moved the carrier around. So, as I was doing my grocery shopping, he was breast – Lewis was breastfeeding the whole way. And you see his little feet kicking. And Ashton, I was control… like getting the boys to put stuff in the trolley. It was the only way I was going to get anything done. Carly: Get this. Tammy: Yep. ‘This one. This one. Okay, get chocolate. That’s fine.’ But just, I don’t think I would have had the confidence to do that. I definitely wouldn’t have had the confidence to do that with Xavier. But Ashton teaching me to let go and who cares what other people think and do what is right and what feels right, I can [15:00] tell you I definitely got stares breastfeeding in a carrier while I was doing the shopping with two very crazy kids. But I got it done. Carly: And I like to think those stares were more like, ‘Oh my gosh, she’s awesome.’ That would have been me. I would have been – because I never figured out how to breastfeed in a carrier. So, if that was me walking past you I would have been like, okay, and how did she do that? Tammy: Where are the legs? Carly: Yeah, right. Hang on, what angle has she got going on? Yeah, I never figured that one out. Tammy: I think it helped that I had a little bit of a tummy still. So, that sort of supported it. But, oh look, and just being able to make it work. Just finding things that just work for you and your family I think. And then, so we’d been separated for about two years, and then I decided to get back on the dating world. And, you know, I got on the apps and decided I didn’t like the apps and kind of went, ‘Oh, you know what? If it’ll happen, it’ll happen. Whatever.’ And I was on a few Australian lesbian Facebook pages, and my partner had written something on Facebook about her and her daughter that really resonated with me. So, I messaged her and was being a bit cheeky in my message, identifying what star sign she was. And we were going back and forth, and then I remember the first sort of night of conversation with us was me basically saying I have a child. At that stage he wasn’t staying with my ex, because I was very clear, you know, in the first two years the priority was the relationship with me and him, him being able to breastfeed, and I’m still breastfeeding him. So, saying that to my new partner, This is what our night looks like. This is… I co-sleep. My kids come into my room if they need to. This is how I work. If you don’t like it sort of let me know.’ And she was like, ‘Well, actually that’s how I work, and my little girl has only just recently transitioned into her bed.’ So, for me sorting the wheat from the chaff, if that makes sense, was quite a process in that, how the relationship evolved for me. And I did talk to a few of the other… a few girls when I was on the dating apps, but just it didn’t align with what I was after, or it felt like my kids were an inconvenience. So, then finding a partner who shared the same philosophy for me, as me, is really valuable. And the way she has adapted to that, and this is how I’ve sort of discovered what a partner looks like when you’re co-sleeping. Because there’s been times when we have had sleepovers and Lewis has gotten upset, and she’s said to me, ‘Would you mind if I take him?’ And she’ll take him and rock him or cuddle him. And it’s just, that’s just like a whole new world. So, as a partner, being able to step up and engage and, you know, talk to your partner, and work out what is going to help, not hinder. Carly: Yep. And read the room. Tammy: Yeah, read the room. Definitely. Not coming in when there’s a tantrum and just reefing the baby off and walking away. Really understanding. And I think, you know, some of that… a lot of that is connection. Having conversations and talking and making sure that you’re on the same page. So, as we’re progressing in our relationship, because we’ve been together almost 6 months - been talking for almost 12-months because, you know, when you’re - very unexpected in a lesbian relationship, we’re not living together, and we didn’t start dating straight away. We talked for quite a while. And for me that was really important too, because for both of us the kids were at the centre of what we did and how we were approaching things. And so, every step of how we’ve engaged with the kids and how we’re progressing our relationship has been quite considered and quite careful and cautious. But just how she’s welcomed my three boys and feeling like I have someone who has my back, and someone who can step in is… like, you don’t understand the value of that until you’ve not had it. And now I’ve had it and gone, ‘Oh, sh*t. Wow. This is a whole… this feels different. This feels good.’ So… Carly: You’re actually supported yourself. Because that’s the thing, isn’t it? Tammy: Yeah. Carly: Like you said Carly: And so, this with your new partner, it’s more that you… they’re there to support you. That’s the role that’s been needed and has been missing for so long for you. Tammy: Definitely. And I thought that like you, I’m quite independent. But I also realise, you know, I can do this, I’ve got this. But actually having someone who’s got my back and supporting me, like I didn’t realise I actually needed it and what a difference it makes to my mental health and makes to my overall wellbeing. And it’s just incredible. Carly: I think that’s the difference too, isn’t it? It’s like you might be okay, as in surviving. And you could do it. But that doesn’t mean it was necessarily the optimal experience for you in terms of having your needs met. And it’s almost impossible – it is impossible – to really do and handle all the all-encompassing needs of children on your own. It’s just now how it’s meant to be. Tammy: No. No. Exactly right. And certainly I’ve learned a lot about myself. In those moments, as I said, with Lewis, I’ve been very relaxed. But it’s also put me in a position where I’ve sort of reflected back on my experiences with Xavier and Ashton. And reflecting back and looking at the first 6-months of Xavier’s life and realising that I had post-natal depression, and realising that I was very alone and not feeling supported. But, you know, managing to pull myself out of that. Because a lot of that time with Xavier was quite foggy. And gosh, this is with a kid that’s sleeping really well. When I fell pregnant with Ashton I had ante-natal depression. So, for the first… when I say I had everything going on, you know, the first 4-months I was finding it quite hard connecting in with him. And I had quite a low level of gender disappointment. With Lewis, that was a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. Because I had quite severe gender disappointment with Lewis, having my third boy. And I think, I know gender disappointment is quite controversial. It is a form of depression, and I can certainly tell you I was very depressed. To say that the colours were sucked out of the world is probably a good way of explaining what it felt like to me. So, for a very… for most of that pregnancy it was very, very hard for me to connect with Lewis. Also, where the placenta was meant that I didn’t feel Lewis much, except for a really big belly that, you know, because my body went, ‘I’ve got this. Know what pregnancy feels like, looks like. Here, instant belly.’ I didn’t feel pregnant. I didn’t have many pregnancy symptoms with him. But my gender disappointment was really, really severe. And my depression, you know, as part of that, was really, really severe. And it was really hard for me to… to come to terms with that. And it was really hard to… I wasn’t at the stage where I found someone to talk to. Carly: I was going to ask; did you seek some support for it? Or what, what… how did you handle? Tammy: I had a counsellor, but I avoided talking about it because it was such a controversial topic, and I didn’t want to be judged. And it’s quite hard to explain. Like, I wasn’t… I’m so grateful. I was so grateful that I was pregnant, and I was so grateful that I had a healthy baby boy. What I was grieving was the fact that I didn’t have a girl. So, you know, they were… they’re two completely separate things. And I know… I joined a support group – a gender disappointment support group. And understanding, because as I said, my gender disappointment got quite… was quite, quite severe where, you know, some of the feelings that I had about myself, I was feeling suicidal when I was 3-months pregnant. So… and I didn’t have support. I didn’t have support from my partner. My partner didn’t understand or didn’t seek to understand. And she was sort of saying to me, ‘Well, you should be grateful. You’re pregnant. You’re lucky. Stop whinging.’ And, you know, I remember telling my mum the gender, and all she did was give me a cuddle because she could see, she could read that I was quite [25:00] upset. I didn’t have anyone to talk to. I was quite alone. And then going through that experience – and probably in hindsight I could have started anti-depressants, because I was quite severe. But then I got in my own head about the impact that that would have on the baby. And then probably, ironically, a week before the separation I started a counsellor, and I started a psychologist. So, going through that – and it was the psychologist that I actually said to – I got to two appointments and then I had a baby two-and-a-half weeks early. But I got to two appointments and her saying to me, you know, ‘It’s okay.’ You know, ‘What you’re experiencing is real. It’s depression, and that’s okay.’ You know? ‘You’re not a bad person.’ Because I felt like I was a bad person. Yeah, her just telling me that it was okay and, you know, she could tell how much I loved my kids. And then, you know, the separation happening, and when I was in hospital I just had all this mixture of emotions and then got a psychiatrist. So, after Lewis was born I was seeing a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and a counsellor. And they all had a different place. And they all like, you know, going back and, as I said, I’ve learnt a lot with Lewis. Going back, I wish I had of had that support with Xavier, because I think those first 6-months, understanding now, sh*t, I was… oh, I had post-natal depression. And I was really, really highly anxious about not breastfeeding because I was experiencing post-natal depression. And all this stuff was happening. And then understanding with Ashton I had ante-natal depression. Because it felt the same, that darkness, it felt like there was no colour in the world. It was… I was feeling and thinking some really crappy things. And then actually having that army of support when Lewis was born, you know, this is a baby that I’m not connected to, that I had named with my ex and then decided I hated the name. He was baby no-name for two days until I landed on Lewis. And then connecting with him. I took a photo of him and I while we were in hospital. I asked the hospital if I could stay in for an extra day because I just didn’t want to… I wanted to be in that bubble, to try and breathe and try and find out what my plan was. And there’s this photo I took of him and I, and it was after I’d named him. And it was just a little selfie. And that there, when I looked at that photo, that was connection for me. That’s when I felt connected to him. And then having that support network of my psychiatrist, psychologist, and counsellor. So, I was speaking to my counsellor on the phone every 3-weeks, seeing my psychologist every two months, and seeing my psychiatrist - for the first month it was every week. And then I wasn’t on medication. He didn’t medicate me because he found that I just needed that support, that’s what was missing. And having that army meant for me, I was able to connect with Lewis, and worked through a lot of this feeling. And really what you said before, you know, having a partner that supports you, well, I didn’t have that, but I found this incredible support network in professionals. And that I think really helped me get through the 8-months that he and I were alone before I went back to work. I think for me that support network and finding a support network if you don’t have family nearby, is probably the most crucial part of being a parent. And finding friends. Like, I’m incredibly grateful. I remember when you were pregnant with Sylvie, and I was pregnant with Lewis, and we were messaging each other. And just having that person who I could relate to and talk to about that stuff, oh my gosh. And Tish. You know, talking her through her pregnancy and going through that. And I think those… those things of you don’t realise how important your family that’s not your family, you know, your friends and your support network, you don’t realise how important they are until you go, ‘Oh sh*t, I didn’t have that. And look at the difference it’s made.’ Or that’s for me, anyway. Carly: Humans are social creatures. We’re not meant to be [30:00] solitary. Solitary… solitary humans would not have survived. And so, it makes sense. It makes perfect sense that we’re all stronger and able to be our best selves when we’re surrounded by quality support. And like you say, if you don’t have that support in people in your immediate circle – friends and family and whatnot – it’s okay to seek it outside of that space, including professional support. Like, I’m so glad they had you. Like… Tammy: Yep. Carly: I’m just, it’s such a relief, especially after getting nearly the whole way through the pregnancy feeling that way on your own. I’m so sorry that that was your experience, because it’s so common and, like you say, there’s a bit of a stigma around it where it almost becomes… you get gaslit into believing that it shouldn’t even be the way you’re feeling, and yet you still are. So, it’s that real danger in telling people that it’s not something that should be giving them troubles, isn’t it? Tammy: Yeah. Carly: So, I’m pleased. I’m pleased that came into your life eventually. Tammy: I didn’t even tell people at work that I was separated because I was so embarrassed. And it was just, there was so much going on for me emotionally. You know? Gender disappointment, not connecting with my bub, going through the separation. There was so much that I was just concealing. And oh my gosh, 100%, all of that affected my performance and all of that affected who I was and how I felt. And all I can remember, the clearest thing was Lewis must have been about 3 months old… sorry, 3 weeks old, and I’d been to my third appointment with my psychiatrist, and I was driving home, and I just noticed there was this tree hanging over the hospital where he was – this tree with these yellow flowers. And I just remember thinking, ‘Oh wow, I’ve never noticed how yellow those flowers were.’ And then I noticed the colour was starting to come back. And it was noticing that stuff, it was… Carly: Incredible. Tammy: Yeah. Carly: Your mind could actually come back into that full technicolour experience of life, because it wasn’t so tunnelled in. Tammy: Yeah. Carly: Oh, I’m so glad you came well again, and I’m so… thank you for being brave enough to share that experience with us, because I’m sure there’ll be people listening along who… who will really resonate with that and… or maybe they even know someone in their circle of family, of friends, who are having those kind of feelings, and this might just open up that space for them to understand the experience a little bit better, even if it wasn’t their own personal experience. Tammy: Yeah. Carly: And I’m so glad you got the support in the end. Tammy: Oh, me too. I would hate to feel… I would hate to think about where I would be as a single parent with three kids managing a new-born if I did not have that support that I did. And oh, my family were absolutely incredible. The morning after I came out of hospital my sister turned up with my dad. My dad took the kids to school. My sister made everyone breakfast. So, my family has just rallied together. So, my family is incredible, been an incredible part of my network, and has also involved my relationship with my family, being able to have open and frank discussions with them where they’ve just got in and helped. And, you know, I’m incredibly grateful for that too because it’s not just, you know, those professionals I think have… have given me that profound shift, but then being able to talk about that with family and close friends I think has enabled me to be more honest and be more truthful about those things. And you’re right. It’s actually opened up where I’ve had a conversation with a mum from Xavier’s school that - a little boy that went through school with him – and she went, ‘Oh, I had that too.’ And having that conversation and being quite open with that has helped her. And I know, as I said, it’s a bit of a controversial topic. But it’s interesting seeing the number of people that are affected and they don’t know what it is. And I think, you know, if you can see that someone is impacted by that, seek to understand. Don’t judge. Because I think that was my biggest fear and that’s why I didn’t seek help, was because I just thought I was going to be judged. So, just seeking to understand it and having a conversation without judgement. Carly: I love it. And I’m just looking at our time. We’re actually a little bit over our half our, so I hope people listening don’t mind that we went a bit longer, but we really needed to capture all of that. So, to finish things off Tammy, do you have a tip? I think you’ve shared lots of tips. But do you have one more tip that you’d like to share with our listeners to finish off the episode? Tammy: I think… I think probably the biggest thing is find your family. And by that I mean not just those that you’re related to [35:00] but your friends and professionals that can support you. Support is key. Support comes in so many different forms and, you know, I had a counsellor for a relationship breakdown, a gender disappointment, and my mental health. So, my friends and my family that support me, but no matter where you are or whether you’re close to… to biologically related family or not, just find your family. Find your support network. Carly: Very wise words, and I think that will be something that anyone listening along, if you haven’t already got your network sorted out, try. And sometimes you’ve got to be really creating about it, but it really is worth everybody’s while if you can. And in COVID world it’s a next-level challenge, but there’s still options out there for support for people. Tammy: And I think The Beyond Sleep Training project, especially, you know, the admins and even, you know, part of the community, that’s been… played a massive part in my journey as well; having stories, being able to share stories, being able to support people. So, I feel incredibly lucky to be an admin where I can share some of this stuff and see that people resonate with it or are grateful. So… so, Beyond Sleep Training project is part of my family, and thank you Carly for being the steer behind that. Carly: Oh, thank you. I’m so glad we have you, and our volunteer team’s just a bit special, so we’re very lucky to have each other as well. Alright. Well, I’m going to round out that episode, but thank you so much for your time, Tammy. It was an absolute treat. And I’ve got a funny feeling we might have another episode in us somewhere down the track as well. Because I just feel like there’s more we could have talked about. Tammy: Thank you. Carly: But thank you so much for being so generous with your time and sharing your wisdom. Thank you. Tammy: Thank you, Carly. See ya. Carly: Bye. Tammy: Bye. Carly Grubb: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. 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