Podcasts Bashi Kumar-Hazard on finding the answer for her second baby and adding her third one to the mix, as well as how things changed as they grew. Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Bashi shares her experience finding the answer to why her second baby wasn't growing, and kept vomiting through the night. Bashi shares how immediate the results were once they found the answer and received medical treatment, as well as how different her third baby was and how her parenting practice changed over her three kids. Check out the Human Rights in Childbirth Facebook page Enjoy the podcast? Donate now to help us produce Season 3 Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and with me today again is Bashi Kumar-Hazard. Bashi joined us on last week’s episode where we got to hear a little bit about how life looked when she welcomed her first baby, also how life would have looked if she was actually mothering her babes where a large part of her family is in Malaysia. And then we also heard about welcoming her second baby, who turns out had extensive health issues that went undiagnosed for a very long time, and Bashi actually credits co-sleeping with potentially saving her life around those. So welcome back, Bashi. Checkout the first part of Bashi's story Bashi:Thank you for having me again. Pleasure to be here. Carly:Now, for anyone who hasn’t listened to that episode I’d strongly encourage you to go back and have a listen, because it will make a whole lot more sense for what we’re about to talk about today. So, when we finished that episode Bashi, we’d just heard that your little girl had had her tonsils and adenoids out and grommets in, as well as glue ear resolved. And you said that… that, like her recovery was almost instantaneous. What did you notice at that time? Bashi:Oh, so I think the first thing that was most.. the probably most remarkable thing, so you know, we met with the surgeon afterwards and, you know, he said, “Look, we’ve done all of these things, but I think she’s going to have speech therapy and she’s going to need, you know, we need to get her hearing checked.” Anyway, she was in recovery and then about five hours later, it was the middle of the night and I remember she woke up and she was starving because they, you know, made her not eat for… Carly:Fast. Bashi:… at least 12 hours. And I whispered to my husband, I said… I said we could give her a biscuit. And she said, as clear as a bell, “Biscuit.” And both of us almost fell off our chair because we realised then that we hadn’t heard her voice for a very long time. Carly:Oh. Bashi:I know. And you know, there was… there was no, like there was no stopping her after that. So, within a month, she immediately within a week started sitting up. The vomiting stopped. She was eating, you know, like volumes. I think she was trying very much to catch up. Within about three months her weight had restored, but more significantly for us she sat up about, you know, a week into it, she was crawling within ten days, and she was walking within three months. And I distinctly remember this, you know. I know I was cooking dinner and she comes into the kitchen. She crawls in. She then stands up because the music is on. I put music on, you know, in the evenings while doing dinner, just to keep them distracted. By this time I’ve got like a 5 year old racing around and her. And… and she comes in and she stands up, and she doesn’t just stand up, she starts dancing. So she swings like… Oh, it was just the most gorgeous thing. You know? She was like just naked except for her nappy and she’s just kind of having a little bit of a swing on those legs, and she knew it too. She was so proud of herself. When sleep isn't normal Carly:Oh, that’s… Bashi:It was so beautiful. Carly:That is just precious. Beautiful. Bashi:Yeah. Yeah. Carly:So, how… how old was she when she had the surgery? Bashi:She would have been just on 18 months. Yeah. Carly:Wow. And so she commenced crawling, like sitting up, crawling and whatnot in that window from the 18 to 24 months. Oh my gosh, Bashi. Bashi:Yeah. Yes. Yes. Carly:What a relief. Bashi:And yeah, yeah. All of that. And it turned out, you know, her hearing was really very good. So we didn’t have to worry about anything other than the grommets and keeping her, you know, out of water and checking… keeping a check on the ears so they weren’t prone to infection and stuff. But yeah, she just went from strength to strength after that. Yeah. Carly:That is amazing. Bashi:It’s amazing. Yeah. Carly:Oh. Truly is. Bashi:And I didn’t let… she didn’t want to leave our bed, and nor did we make her. She kind of decided, [5:00] you know, that she was fiercely independent and wanted to, because the kids were in the same room, and she wanted to be back with her older brother, which was great actually because he was getting to the point where he probably was going to have his own room, but they managed to… she managed to get two years out of him and they really bonded through that. It was fantastic. Yeah. Carly:Oh that’s beautiful. And so, like her sleep improved instantly with the surgery as well? Bashi:Instantly. So, you know, not only was she sleeping, so she did a lot of catching up. She did a lot of… like I think we both did to be honest, because my stress levels, you know. It took me a while to, because I was constantly checking on her through the night. You know, every time you turn you’re like, is she okay? Is she okay? Carly:Hypervigilant to the max. Bashi:Yeah, you are. You are. And you know, you just want to make sure that you don’t miss a thing like in terms of her distress or whatever it is. But funnily enough as I said, when she was lying next to me with her mouth always half open, you know, ready to latch onto that boob, she slept well, you know, and her temperature was really well regulated. So, I think even after the surgery I just kept her with me and then about… probably about a year, year and a half later she sort of went, I’m moving on now, and left. Carly:[0:06:16.2] Bashi:Yeah. I love having them. Carly:I bet you do. But it would have been, like you probably both needed that recovery time, because there would have been, like in terms of night… night feeds and things like that, I’m imagining she still would have really benefited from that nutritional boost while she was regaining all of her strength and whatnot as well. Bashi:Absolutely. So again I did the same thing. I let the kids… she weaned when she was ready, and she would have been about sort of 3, just over 3. So she got a good 18 months from me and probably made up for all the time she, you know, threw up that breast milk. But it was, I have to say - the surgeon said this to me as well – he said, oh, you know, after the surgery he said, “Look, I have no doubt that you continuing to breastfeed her through all of that saved her life,” because as we know, the breastmilk digests faster. Right? The food sits there but the breastmilk just goes through and is really easily digested and would have been, you know, gone through and into her before she had a chance to throw it up. So he… he more or less was saying, yep. He was also saying you kept her throat open with the breastfeeding and encouraged her to swallow. So, these were all things that were essentially keeping her alive. Breastfeeding and sleep Carly:Oh Bashi, that’s amazing. And it’s something that like, I guess is not necessarily people would credit with it, but it makes a whole lot of sense physiologically. That having her in that proximity with you, the positioning and the very nature of the breastmilk, that that would actually be assisting her all through that really torrid time in her life. Bashi:It was, yeah. And she, you know, she’s so precious to us. And just that I – and I feel this for mums, I feel that when they’re, you know, when your baby’s sick and you’re going through the system and nobody realises the absolute personal hell you’re gong through, you know, where… and we do have this tendency because women are so isolated and alone, the enormous amount of pressure we put on them. So, you know, there’s no community rallying around them, so when we go and seek help or get these access to services, there’s an element of blame that always creeps in. You’re not doing enough. You didn’t do this. Why didn’t you do that. This is… this is the chart which follows a pattern of normal. You know, your baby should be at this stage. Your baby should be weaned. Your baby shouldn’t be, you know, on this bottle or that bottle or this weaning cup. Honestly, we just need to get over it. I don’t know. I always said to, you know, women who like, “Oh, the nurse told me to, you know, take… get him off the bottle,” and I’d say, “I don’t know any 18 year old that’s still on a bottle.” So whatever. You know? Let it go. Carly:Yeah. Bashi:Let it go. Don’t beat yourself up over it. Carly:It has… it’s practical or real life too, isn’t it? It’s like it’s all the ideals in the world, but then there’s real life, and it’s okay to have your real life not represent whatever that bit of perfection you’re supposedly meant to strive for. Bashi:I know and there’s… Carly:Not that it exists anyway. Bashi:And there’s no, in fact the evidence is exactly the opposite. The first five years of a child’s life you love them. You know? The boundaries you set are so gentle. Basically it’s like, you know, don’t clobber your little brother. You know. Or, you know, maybe even like I think if you’re lucky you can convince them to sit at the table for long enough, you know, to pretend to have a meal. And even if they don’t, like at least they sat at the table. You know, there’s all these gentle things that you do which is really kind of infused with love. And there’s so much science now to show that that bonding period makes for healthy, stable, adjusted adults who are capable [10:00] of loving, who are capable of forming their own families, who show that same love and patients and endurance to little people and little animals and their colleagues and their employees. We need a lot more of that. There’s no evidence that, you know, controlling, organising and, you know, being authoritative over young children actually helps them. They don’t learn anything except fear and aversion. That’s not healthy adulthood. Carly:It absolutely isn’t, and it’s… it generally comes from a place of fear. And as we know, anything coming from a place of fear generally isn’t the most healthy way to be as a human, so I think that’s really wise words as well. Now I’m curious, your little love, she obviously came well. And at what point did you welcome your third babe to the fold? Bashi:Okay. So, Connor was really our surprise baby. After we had, and we, you know, our daughter Karsha was on the mend, about six months after that my husband was ready. He could take a sabbatical. And I had by this time actually resigned from my job, because they were harassing me while she was sick to come back to work and I said no. You know, there’s only one thing that’s really important. Your entire being becomes dedicated to supporting your sick child. And so I couldn’t think of anything else and it was fine with me at the time. So when he had this sabbatical opportunity we decided that we would take our two little troopers, who by now were like, you know, little adventurers, and we would go on a round trip. So we went to Malaysia, we went to Thailand, we went to… I think we went to Hong Kong, we went to the border of China, and we came back around again. And they were amazing. You know, 3 and 6 year olds. They really were just extraordinary and we had such a good time. And then six weeks after I came back I was pregnant. Carly:Woah, yeah, surprise. Bashi:Yes it was. Yes it was. Carly:Oh my goodness. Bashi:And Connor proved to be the greatest challenge pregnancy-wise. He, you know, throw out the rule book. By this point I would say I vomited furiously until he was born. Yep. You know, every 45 minutes, half an hour to 45 minutes it was. Carly:Oh Bashi. Did you have that… did you have any morning sickness with your first two babes? Because obviously this isn’t just morning sickness, but did you have like a… did you think this could happen? Bashi:It got progressively worse. So it was about five months for the first one and then I felt amazing. It would have been about six to seven months with Akasha, and then I… I do, I recover and I feel amazing. But with Connor it just never left. And so I think I… so by the time - he was about 4.1 kilos when he was born and… Carly:You’re tiny. Bashi:I know. I’m only 5”4. Carly:Where did you put that baby? Bashi:Oh, I could barely stand up. And just to give you an idea, I never gained a kilo through the pregnancy. So he was the sum total of me. Yeah. It got to the point where, okay, the week before he was born if I’d kneel down to pick up Lego or whatever it was I had to basically crawl to the wall and use it to get myself back up again. That’s what it was like. Yeah. Yeah. And I was dealing with the other two by just carrying them on my back and just doing it that way. It was… it was just… Carly:Oh mate. That is impressive that you were still able to get down on the floor and carry toddlers on your back when you had... holy moly mate, that’s strong. Bashi:To be honest I don’t quite know. You just do it though. You know, I honestly, looking back now think… I think that, you know, women in Australia have children and go through.. and pregnancy, I think that we’re superhuman to be honest. We put up with so much. So, yeah. Connor, and even from the moment he was born Connor had his own plans. He knew what he wanted and when. So, he fed whenever. He slept whenever. He just did what he wanted. And even the weaning. Like he, you know, I used to sit him there and I had all these plans for sort of feeding, like you know, spoon feeding with, you know, pear sauce or I don’t know what it was at the time. And he looked over at his brother who was eating like, you know, some pieces of fish and a fresh salad and he basically just reached over, gouged some of that, swallowed it whole, because he was toothless, and we were all like, “Oh my god, he’s got…” And you know what? That was it. He never, he just refused, you know, soft food. He just… he just lived off that. Yeah. Carly:It’s so funny, isn’t it? When they decide. Like my… [15:00] my babes were all big eaters, but I still remember my third baby just balancing on my knee and just reaching for my plate and going, and just chowing down. I can’t even remember what it was on my plate, but I hadn’t even factored in… like I think I was just mid conversation. It’s like, oh, hang on a sec, so we’ve started solids then. Bashi:Yeah. That’s exactly what it was like. And you know, by the next day that… all that sort of, you know, you prepare, like you’re getting ready for the weaning process, and I prepared this stuff and I just looked at it and I thought it’s never going to happen. I just threw it all out. Carly:And how much easier is it though when they just like eat what everyone else eats. It’s so much easier. Bashi:And he was adamant. Like, and even today, you know, this thing. Like he’s just big on salads because that’s what he wanted and, you know, but more colourful it is, the more exciting it is and… and you know, I think the most fascinating thing for me, so we used to really finely slice like slivers of lamb and steak, and he did… he only had one tooth and he’d… he’d swallow it like a lizard and it became like this family – like we’d all sit there just going, “What is he…? Oh, he’s done it. Oh my god.” You know? And it was so fascinating, even to the other two. They were like, they just thought he was, yeah. He was a force unto himself. And with him too, by this time I just slept with him from the day he was born. You know? We carved out a space. My husband was… actually my husband was punted to the next bed and I just stayed with him and I... I wouldn’t let him out of my sight. I wasn’t going to take, you know, do that to any of my babies again. Never. Never. Carly:And how did… and did you think, like did that help you with your fatigue levels and things like that? Like how did you feel… Bashi:Yes. Carly:… while you had him right there with you? Bashi:Well, by this time I was also very assertive as a mum. So I said to my husband, you know, for the first six weeks you’ve got the other two and you’re home. And I spent a lot of time just lying there and looking at him. You know? Inspecting his toes and his fingers and his, you know? It’s really, really a great time. I fed him when he wanted to be fed and through the night he would just turn around and latch on. He just did his thing and he thrived. I mean to be fair too, he was 4.1 kilos and I was already so, you know, skinny, and so I needed the rest and I needed, you know, to… in order to be able to keep up with feeding him, and I needed to eat really well. And I, so you know, this time round I think we were clever enough to finally do the things for me postnatally that we should have always done, instead of me trying to be brave and, you know, defy the odds. Because all you’re doing is borrowing from an empty vessel. You just, it’s not there. You’re building a debt on your body and your physical and mental health that, it’s very draining. I just honestly find – and I think if… if we all knew just how different it was in other cultures we probably would all just go on strike as mums. Carly:Yeah, I think so. I think so too, and I think it’s also important because I think, almost in my head, I remember hearing about some of this stuff afterwards and I remember being so confused first time around because I’d heard of all these like things that might help you in the postpartum, but I kind of thought that’s because that was the only intense time and it’s like after that your baby sleeps and whatnot. So, it’s almost like I thought I could put off my recovery until he was that bit older, not realising that actually the baby’s still going to be intense, but it you get your recovery right now you’re going to be able to better cope and deal with our growing baby and their needs. Bashi:Yeah. Carly:And to be well with yourself. Bashi:That’s it. And that’s the thing; we’re sold this belief that it’s a race. That you just have to get from A to B. You know? And you’ll be fine after that. Life will return to normal. It’s not. It’s a marathon. You’ve got to pace yourself. You’ve got to be adequately hydrated. You know, you’ve got to be… you know, in the… in the right space with the right support network. You’ve got to have someone along there cheering you along. Like it’s so essential for you to be able to keep going. You know, and the child will just keep presenting because I think you, you know, just when you think you’ve got it down pat in terms of a, you know, a routine that works for them and for you, they get up and start running around, and then you get even less sleep. I think I was the one who most upset when my eldest, Declan, gave up his afternoon nap because I was pregnant with Karsha and all I wanted to do was have a nap. I put him in his sleeping bag and in the cot in next to me in my room, and at one point I remember just like having one eye half opened and I watched him swing himself over the cot in his sleeping bag, slide down [20:00] the rungs onto the ground, and then shuffle out of my room to go and play in the backyard. Could not believe. All of this in that sleeping bag. And… Carly:Oh, what a legend. Bashi:He was. And once he figured out how to do it there was no stopping him and I knew that was it. So much for afternoon naps. Forget it. Carly:Yeah. Done. Done. Cot… done with cot also. Cot gone. Bashi:Yep. Exactly. Carly:Oh my god. Bashi:It’s over. Yep. Carly:That is so funny. I definitely grieved the end of naps. Like, it was like something I had to let go. Like it usually made bedtime heaps easier so, you know, there is a bit of a trade-off. Bashi:Yeah. Carly:But holy dooly, when you first realise that actually that doesn’t happen forever, ooh, it hurts. Bashi:Yeah. Boy does it hurt. Right? Carly:Especially when you’re pregnant. Bashi:Yes. Carly:When you’re pregnant it’s a killer. Bashi:It is. Carly:But that’s it. Bashi:I so looked forward… I remember I’d give him lunch and I’d be so looking forward to that little kip. Yeah, nup. It went. Carly:Nup. Well, that’s what – we had to introduce the quiet time, and usually it involved a movie because then I was able to just lay still. Bashi:Yeah. Carly:And, you know, that… it depended on the attention span and age and whatnot, but you know, even if I got 15 minutes of sitting with my legs up, I needed it. I needed to have that quiet downtime. I couldn’t keep going at toddler pace without that break. Bashi:Yeah. Oh, I remember – this is a good story actually. So, I had to do this napping thing with Connor because by the time I was eight months into the pregnancy I was so unwell, I was really like, you know, running out of energy. And one day, same thing, I put a movie on and the, you know, the two of them were sitting there. So I had Declan at the end. He would have been like 5. So, just before school. And Karsha was sitting on me and she was about 2½. And I must have dozed off because when I woke up they both had like Sharpies and they had drawn pictures and flowers all over one side of me that, you know, they could get to, because they were sitting on top of me so they just kind of drew… And I got… and I got up and my husband came home, and I didn’t realise it. You know, it was all down here, down my neck and… and he was like, “What happened to you?” And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “You’re covered in drawings. Like you just…” And it wouldn’t go away for a couple of weeks. Carly:Because it was a Sharpie. That’s permanent marker for anyone listening along. Bashi:Yep. Now we’re not allowed to have… Carly:No, so they couldn’t… they didn’t find themselves some washable markers. They went and found the Sharpies of all things. Oh Bashi, that’s awesome. Bashi:Raided the telephone drawer, you know, and just… just drew stuff all… and Karsha, you know, she was doing butterflies and flowers and… yeah. Carly:And the level of passed out you must have been, to not even feel it. I love it. That is so good. Mummy really needed a nap. Bashi:That’s it. That’s it. It was so… And you know, after that I was so resigned to it. I remember like, you know, going to the shops and people just looking at me with, you know, these drawings coming down my face, and what can you do? Carly:It eventually came off? Bashi:It eventually came off. Carly:Like, hey what? Have I got something on my face? Oh, that’s awesome. Oh, I love it so much. Now, I’m just… I’m just thinking one thing I haven’t really asked you about is were your babes contact nappers during the day? Did they… did you tend to have cuddles to sleep, or were they more of independent sleepers during the day? Bashi:Uh, no. Always a bit of a snuggle before sleep. And depending on, like I was pretty good at anticipating like the tiredness. After a while I should say. Like, you know, took at least six months. But you don’t… you shouldn’t underestimate that quiet time in a dim room because it does actually wind them down, and you holding them winds them down more. So a bit of singing, you know, and a bit of bouncing around and a bit of rocking. But also part of the ritual of going in there. So, I used to go in there humming and singing and I’d say, “Oh, let’s make this room really nice and cool and dark,” and you draw the curtains and you’re still chatting and stuff like that. And so that was actually not… not hard to do at all because they’re quite tired in the afternoons. The night-time I found a bit harder, even though we did the whole bath and settled down, they loved their book reading so much that it would be like, “Another one. Another one. Another one.” Carly:Yeah. Bashi:You know? So we’re like, “Five books today, mummy.” And I’d be like, “No, three.” “Four.” “No, three.” “Four!” And that would… and eventually of course I’d do four because, you know. Carly:Yeah. They’re books. You know? Bashi:Yeah. No. And it all is, you know, good fun. I… I have to admit, I secretly love those books [25:00] we had. But they loved it too. So we used to sit there together and do a lot of reading. Yeah. Carly:That’s beautiful. And so as your babes got older, just for people listening along, how did bedtime shift and change. Like do you still stay with your babes while they’re going to sleep? Or do they prefer that you leave now? Or how does that look as the ba… as they grow older? Bashi:So, by the time they were about 8 or 9 they were happy with like a kiss and a hug and a cuddle. But bear in mind that we read to all of our kids, and we still read to our 10 year old, until they’re ready… like it’s bedtime. So, we would get, climb into bed with them half an hour before, you know, the usual bedtime and read. Read and read. So, it’s part of the ritual. It’s an essential part of the ritual as far as they’re concerned. And I think we, yeah, about… about 10 years of age, maybe even 11 for my daughter because she loved the reading so much. Our eldest, he started doing his own reading and that was sort of, you know, this thing. So we’d put him to bed and he’d say, “I want to read for my… by myself for half an hour.” So… but that, even that, he was probably about Year 6 and he was kind of getting more aware of the fact that, you know, we were like… because we were also doing both of them, so he let it go faster. Karhsa didn’t really want to let it go till she got to Year 6 as well. And with Connor, I don’t know that, yeah, he’ll… I think it’ll be at least another couple of years before he’s ready to give that up too. It’s about an age where they sort of go, I want to do my own reading. So then it’s like a hug. We still I have to say, even with our 16 year old who’s actually just turned 17, bedtime involves like a little chat. Like we… I sit there and just check in with them. So, it’s like how are you going? You know, did you have a good day? Or… and sometimes I just go in there and give them a hug and goodnight and they will start a conversation. And I can’t tell you how important that is. It’s like they’ve been, you know, worrying about something or thinking about something all day, and then it’s their last opportunity. And this is the other thing that we underestimate, which is that, you know that witching hour and unsettled period that they have before bedtime as children? It actually hits them again as teenagers. So, you know, they do. They like to sleep in, but they also like get quite kind of active at about, you know, 8, 8:30 at night. So it’s a great time to sit and chat. A really good time. 1, it’ll be some question that will be thrown at you. You know. Like, you know, something about they’ve heard at school, some kid’s in trouble because, you know, they were caught with drugs in their pockets. What would we do in the situation? Really important conversations to have and to be ready for them. So I do that, and then I’m still very hands on. I don’t care if they don’t want it, they get big hugs and kisses from me. Randomly. Randomly through the day. Yeah. Carly:Just demonstrating that love. I love the idea of that. Especially, I think that’s like, you know, for people with their tiny babes at the moment, knowing that they’re laying the groundwork for those… those kind of conversations and openness in the relationship with their parent. Bashi:Yeah. Carly:Right from infancy, because you’ve been available for that all their lives. Bashi:And that skin contact, don’t ever let it go. Just always be normalised about it. You know? Just a random, you’re walking past, reach over and give them a hug. My eldest is 5 foot 10 now and I am literally hugging him around the waist. I don’t care. Carly:I was going to say, you’d be up to his belly button. Bashi:Absolutely. And you know what? Now, you know, he loves it. Like he’ll just, I’ll say hi now, morning darling, whatever. Have a good day. And he’ll say, I love you mum and, you know, put his arms around me. It’s just gorgeous. Yeah. Carly:Oh, I love, I just honestly. Bashi:Don’t ever let it go. Carly:That really warms my heart, because like, you know, that you can see how quickly they grow. Mine are 7, nearly 6 and 3, and I can just see already, the babyness is leaving them. But I just always hope that they still feel like they can have that connection with me. So I love hearing that you’ve got that with your little… big little people now. Bashi:Yeah. And you know what? Never – like even though they do this whole “I’m independent”, you find ways. I mean I think the book reading and the evenings and the chatting is, you know. But just also random sort of, you know, so it doesn’t get in their way, and it’s not too intensive. You’re just walking past and you go… I’ll sometimes say, “I kiss you,” and I’ll just give them a kiss on the cheek. Carly:Just keeping your connection going regardless. Bashi:That’s it. That’s it. Carly:That’s beautiful. Well, we’re nearly up to our 30 minutes again, and so I’m wondering if you would have one more tip that you’d like to share with our listeners? Bashi:So, I think if there’s one thing that got us through [30:00] all of the ups and downs of, you know, raising our babies, it is that I always look at them through the lens of love. Always. So, you know, no matter how many tantrums we’ve been through it’s my job. I’m the one who has to forgive unconditionally. I’m the one who has to always look at them and give them that benefit of the doubt the rest of the world will never give them. It’s my job and I take it very seriously. And that would be my advice, is always look at your children through the lens of love. Carly:Oh Bashi, that is just perfect. And thank you so much for being an amazing guest and sharing your experience with your family, and your three very unique little people, and the dramas that you all went through to find your feet with your family. So thanks again for coming on the show, Bashi. Bashi:It’s an absolute pleasure Carly. Loved it. Carly:Thank you. And I’ll be sure to drop all of the links to Bashi’s work that she does on human rights in childbirth, the International Lawyers Network, and also her law firm BW Law, into our show notes, and the Facebook page links as well in case anybody wanted to get in contact with her. Thanks for your work in that area also Bashi, it’s hugely needed in the community and we appreciate you so much. Thank you. Bashi:Absolute pleasure. Take care. Enjoy the podcast? Donate now to help us produce Season 3 Carly: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. If you'd like even more from the show you can join us as a patron on Patreon and you can find a link for that in our show notes if listening is not really your jam we also make sure we put full episode transcripts on our little sparklers website for you to also enjoy and fully captioned YouTube videos as well on our Little Sparklers channel so thanks again for listening today we really enjoy bringing this podcast to you. Join us on Patreon today “The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast (Podcast) is hosted by Little Sparklers (us, we or our). The primary purpose of this Podcast is to educate and inform. It does not constitute professional advice or services. We invite guests on the Podcast from time to time (Guests). In listening to this Podcast, you acknowledge and agree that the views expressed in this podcast are: information only and do not constitute professional advice from us or our Guests; personal to us and our Guests and do not necessarily reflect any other agency, organisation, employer or company and may not be verified for accuracy; and general in nature and do not refer to any unique situation. If you take action on the basis of any Podcast episode, you should obtain professional advice – whether legal, financial, accounting, medical or otherwise – before proceeding. This Podcast is available for private, non-commercial use only. Advertising which is incorporated into, placed in association with or targeted toward the content of this Podcast without our express approval is forbidden. You may not edit, modify, or redistribute this Podcast. We assume no liability for any activities in connection with this Podcast or for use of this Podcast in connection with any other website, third party streaming service, computer or playing device.