Podcasts Jessica Milburn on her first little sparkler, her second and third babies, and how her family has managed the needs of all three of their little ones Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Jessica shares her experience as a first-time mum, with a frightening start and a little one who woke every 60 minutes. Jessica also shares how different sleep was for her second and third babes and how it's changed over the years as their circumstances and needs have changed, including her youngest one, who was born at the beginning of the pandemic. Jessica runs Responsive Parenting, a wonderful page to follow on Instagram and Facebook and has a blog and education site that offers a unique approach to parenting where you don’t try to change children’s behaviour but rather, try to understand it and support their needs: https://responsiveparentingblog.com/ Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and with me today I’m excited to introduce you to Jessica Milburn. Jessica is somebody, I have been admiring her work for… for years now. She is responsible for the page Responsive Parenting, which is an outstanding resource in helping parents get a better handle on some alternative ways of parenting their little ones. Jessica is the mum of three little people and a parenting mentor with a degree in child development, and she’s coming to us today all the way from Canada. So welcome to the show, Jessica. Jessica:Oh hi. Thank you for having me. Carly:Now did I miss anything in your introduction there that you wanted to add? Jessica:Not really, no. Carly:Well I just… well, if you don’t mind, I just wanted to let our listeners know if they’re wondering what we mean by responsive parenting, I love the way Jessica’s actually got on her website an article that outlines the principles of responsive parenting, and I… I would love just to let people know what those principles are just so they get a bit of a basis for feeling where Jessica’s work comes from. So the first principle is trust. Then we have attachment, child-led, acceptance, responsiveness, authenticity, inclusiveness, advocacy, accountability, reflection, boundaries, balance, journey and grace. Jessica:It’s a lot. Carly:It is a lot, but what I really love about all of those things is I feel like they… they fit with the whole complexity of the situation. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:But also in a way they all complement each other so beautifully. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:So for people listening along to Jessica’s story today, because that’s what we’re here to share, I would love for you to also at some chance… some time actually go and check out Jessica’s page. She’s got a fabulous Instagram and website which we’ll drop into show notes just so you can explore a little bit further and see if it might help you in your parenting journey as well. So, without further ado, let’s get into your sleep story, Jessica. And can I ask you, I usually check with our guests, how did you think you were going to be handling sleep with your family before you actually had your first baby? Jessica:So, my introduction to infant sleep was more through ECE, through Early Childhood Education. So I worked in infant rooms. But they start at like 12 months, so really my understanding was 12 months and we rock the babies to sleep, we hold them and then we put them in the crib and sometimes they wake up and you, you know, put them back to sleep. We’d take turns. We’d take them on stroller rides. So I really had this responsive concept, and that was the plan. But I think I really believed that my child was going to act a lot like these 12-month-olds, and that wasn’t quite the case with my first child. So yeah. Carly:Funnily enough they hadn’t quite got there yet. Jessica:Yeah. I remember in the hospital them saying, like he was in the NICU and them saying I had to wake up every three hours to feed him and… You know, you knew babies woke up, but I didn’t really understand that like you had to wake up every three hours. I literally thought, like how do people do that? That doesn’t… that’s not sustainable. And I just assumed that when they got home they start sleeping through. Like that… why wouldn’t that make sense? Like maybe they wake up the odd time and, you know. But I really could not understand how you were supposed to wake up every three hours. And it ended up being way more than that. So… Normal infant sleep Carly:So the rude shock just kept getting ruder. Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Carly:So you… so you just said that your first babe ended up in NICU… Jessica:He was. Carly:Did… would you like to… can you share with us what was it like welcoming your baby? Jessica:Well, he… I was induced because I had high blood pressure. I’ve had that with all my children. He was… that was three weeks early but he had some lung issues, and I had him for about 45 minutes and then someone just came into the room and they just walked out with him. [5:00] And I shuffled my husband after him, right? But I don’t think I saw him for another five, six hours. Carly:Wow. Jessica:And then it was early in the morning when it happened. It was like an early, like 10:30 in the morning. So it was like all day. I don’t even remember that day to be honest with you. I try and remember it and I don’t, because I think I was just sitting in a hospital room waiting to hear about my baby. So, yeah. And so then about supper time I heard a code pink. And I was like ‘Go!’ Like I sent my husband, because my legs still weren’t working from the epidural. So, he went and they wouldn’t let him in and it’s this whole dramatic story. He… he tried to like fight the security guards or something, then he collapsed and the nurses came out. Anyway, he comes back an hour later. So I’m sit – it’s right there, it’s like across the hall. So, I… you know, I’m waiting that whole hour, like, oh my god, it’s my baby. It’s my baby. It’s my baby. It’s my baby. He came back with all these nurses and everyone’s crying. It’s this whole thing. Well, I’m thinking my baby’s gone. He wasn’t. They were, like they just intubated him and I got to go see him a couple hours later I think. I don’t remember the first latch with him at all, but I know that nursing wasn’t too hard. He really wanted to nurse but he wasn’t getting a lot. That was a big issue. So, I mean it was hard. I slept there. And so what you would have to do is you would have to… you go in and you try to nurse for an hour, but you’d only nurse for about 45 minutes and the last 15 - like they’d be waiting the whole time. Right? And then the last 15 minutes you would have to feed him either your breastmilk that had been pumped, and if you didn’t have enough then they’d give him formula. Right? So there’s all this pressure. Because it’s just… [7:05]. Right? Carly:Just a little bit of stress for a brand new mum. Jessica:So, and then you leave. You try and pump for an hour, you wash the pump parts and then you go and feed yourself, and you literally repeat this three hour process all day, every day, through the night. You know, there’s no break to it. Right? I mean they kept telling me I could take a break, but I… I couldn’t. I was devastated. Like I wanted to feed my baby every time I could. I wanted to wake up with him every time I could. I wasn’t allowed to stay with him. I was only allowed to stay in a room down the hall. So, like I just really wanted my baby, so I was allowed to be with him once every three hours, that’s what I was going to do. Carly:Absolutely. Jessica:So, yeah. Carly:That is an incredibly intense start for you both. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:Can you tell me what was it like when you actually were able to have your baby? Jessica:So, my first night sleeping with the baby was actually at the hospital. They did have other rooms, and basically, they just let me have one night. Like I knew he was probably going home the next day and we just had the last night and he stayed in the room with me. It was pretty good but honestly I was so… it was like, you know, when you first give birth – because I experienced this with my other children, you’re just kind of like in an elation. Like I didn’t sleep like that whole night. You know. And he nursed a little bit. I think he slept four hours and I was shocked. I had said to them, like do I have to wake him up to feed him every three hours? And they said, no, but four. And I said okay. You know. And then when they came the next morning, I remember they knocked on the door and they said, ‘How are you?’ And I said, ‘That was the absolute best night of my life.’ I was just, I was so elated to have my baby. And she said, ‘I’ve literally never heard someone say that.’ Carly:That is beautiful. Just the relief of having your love with you. Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, she just said this really like, she’s like, ‘That is beautiful and so weird.’ Carly:Yeah, she’d be like, wow, that’s not usually the response we get. Jessica:Yeah, typically they get a really like, oh my god, worst night of my life. Right? But no. And I get that now. Carly:Oh, that’s just… yeah. Jessica:I really get that now. So when we came home I was… I was terrified to fall asleep with him. Even to nurse him in the middle of the night I was really scared that I was going to fall asleep because I take medication for mental health stuff, and the medication I take at night makes me a little, tiny bit sleepy. And at the time, of course I’ve never had children before. I have no idea. You know, I normally take it and go to sleep. Like I’ll get up and pee, but I’m not, you know, it’s what… you know. I’m not sure how it’s going to affect me. So, but it’s, you know, safe enough to take while pregnant and all that stuff. So I… sorry, I feel need to justify the medication thing. Carly:You don’t at all, [10:00]. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:But it is actually good for people listening along who are considering whether they’d like to take medication, because it’s a valid option people need to consider. Jessica:There are risks, but with me, I have CPTSD with panic attacks, so the risk of me not being on medication is far more to the baby than me being on it. So, it is what it is. But of course having a baby in NICU, you know, I’m explaining myself and all that stuff. But anyway, so I was taking the medication and I did fine waking up, but I was still terrified so I would turn off… on all the lights in my room. I would turn on the TV. I would turn on, like the worst possible thing you could possibly do when a baby wakes up, like, just like completely wake us all up. Just the whole thing. Carly:It’s like the anti-sleep hygiene. Learn more about sleep hygiene Jessica:Oh my god, Jessica. I like, I just was so terrified. Like I’m just looking back and I’m like, it was just, it was a… it was a fear reaction, right? So, I did that for a long time. I can’t even tell you how many months. Three, four months. And this child never slept more than 60 minutes. Carly:Oh mate. Jessica:He was in a Moses basket, because we were in this little apartment at the time with my husband’s father, and I would wrap myself around the Moses basket on my bed. And like, because I was too scared to hold him, but like I knew he liked to be close to me, and it was just… you know? Such a… it was so bad. So I wasn’t getting good sleep even in the 20 minutes I was getting sleep. Right? Safer Sleep Carly:Yep. Jessica:Oh my gosh. It took me… we ended up moving at a certain point. Anyway, at some point around 6, 9, I don’t know, closer to 12 months, I started literally just falling asleep with him sometimes in the bed. Like 4 o’clock in the morning I would bring him in my bed and try to just nurse him in there because it was more comfortable. Right? And because at that point I was trying to get him in the crib I think. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. He never slept in the crib for like, I don’t know. Carly:The story of so many of our lives. Yes. Jessica:Yeah, exactly. So I mean never. So, it was a joke. So anyway, yeah, so he would sometimes be in the bed and I’d be trying to nurse him and he… I would fall asleep. And it seemed fine. You know? Like I was getting really good rest and it was like, it was really comfortable. Do you know what I mean? And it just felt okay. So then being the child development person I am, actually I didn’t have a degree in child development at that time. I’d started my degree but had to leave with the baby. So I just had ECE. So education-wise I didn’t have the full thing I have now. But he… sorry, I lost track of what I was saying. Yes. So… Yeah, so I looked it up. And I looked up co-sleeping and I looked up bed-sharing and I found Dr McKenna and I found Dr Sears, and it wasn’t just that the information kind of validated me, it was that it resonated with me. It was like, even… I just remember even the profound thought of like how soothers and even stuffies and blankies – not that there’s any problem with those things – but they were all sorting like, you know, a hummer, and they replace the parent. They want the parent and that – we’re just trying to fill that void. Right? And you know, I’ve used all that stuff. I’m not judging the use of that stuff in any way. But just something about that concept made so much sense to me. I was like, yes, that’s exactly how I feel. Why didn’t that click with me before? The reason he can’t sleep in the crib, the reason he can’t sleep in the Moses basket, the reason he can’t sleep everywhere is because he wants to be with me. Like, why didn’t I get that before? Carly:Hey mate, you are not alone on that one. We can all be quite… because it’s so cultural, isn’t it? Jessica:Yeah. Carly:Like it’s just, it’s not automatically something that you understand. It makes so much sense. It’s like once you’ve seen it and understood it you can’t not. But before that… Jessica:You’re trying to solve all the other sayings. Carly:Yeah. Jessica:You’re trying to solve what is… and I remember just the, you know, trying to… like I really get those pictures of people looking at like the formulas and trying to figure out like a scientific formula for like how to get the baby to sleep through the night. And I really get that, because that’s what it’s like. Like you’re… you’re like how do I? So last night he slept 60 minutes and this night was only 45. What was the difference? You know, like… Carly:And he had his red jammies on and then I put the… Jessica:Yep, exactly. And the – oh, it must be the temperature went down a degree. No, he wants his mumma. Because it doesn’t matter if he’s in the red jammies or the blue jammies or the green jammies when he’s snuggled with mummy. So, it is what it is. Now that child is 8 years old. That child still needs to sleep with somebody. That is one of three. [15:00] They’re all different. Carly:Can I just point out though, like you know, he still needs to sleep with somebody, and yet you managed to make two other babies, just to break down a little bit of one of those… Jessica:To be honest with you… I’ll be super honest with you about that whole part of it. My husband is a snorer, and me and my husband even before we had kids, we usually didn’t sleep in the same bed. So, for us that transition wasn’t huge and it hasn’t been a big problem. This year is the first year we started sleeping in the same bed together and my 8 year old took over his spot and kicked him downstairs. Carly:Oh really? Jessica:Yeah, he sent him down with the 4 year old. Carly:Oh, that’s hilarious. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:Do you know, we’ve actually had a couple of guests now who’ve come on and they also have slept in separate beds due to snoring, and have still managed to maintain healthy relationships with each other, so… Jessica:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Carly:Yeah. So, I feel like for our listeners, if you are trying to work out options for your family right now it is actually a valid option to consider. Jessica:Yep. Carly:It doesn’t work for every family, but it is an option to consider, so thank you for sharing that as well. Jessica:And I also have other, like so with my other children, number two I… he’s fairly textbook, pretty easy baby. You know, woke up… you know, whatever. He slept through the night around 2, 3 months, like out of nowhere… Carly:Woah. Jessica:I’m like what the hell is this? I posted that on my Facebook. Carly:Did it stay that way though? Jessica:No, of course not. Carly:Oh good. Thank goodness. Jessica:I posted that on Facebook where I was like sort of cocky, you know. Carly:I was starting to like, what? Jessica:Look at me. This one slept through the night at 3 months. You know, of course it lasts like maybe six weeks. And my… my milk dropped off. My milk dropped off significantly, and then he wouldn’t sleep at all because he’s cluster, cluster, cluster, cluster feeding, and then he never really went back to that until probably, he was still really good… Like, I don’t know, probably close to 18 months, but maybe even before that he started sleeping through the night, even though he was still nursing. So that was pretty impressive. That was like, oh, that ain’t what they tell you is going to happen. Right? Development and Sleep Carly:Absolutely. And that… Jessica:He would nurse before bed and he’d nurse, you know, when he woke up and a few times during the day. It wasn’t a big deal. Right? Every once in a while he’d wake up. If he was sick he’d wake up or, you know, on occasion he’d wake up, it was 4 or 5 in the morning. You’d go in and snuggle. But it was nothing like this, you know, 60-minute kid. Carly:The baptism of fire kid, that came first, and then you’ve got this person. Did you find second time around, like obviously it sounds like you had quite a different start with him, but did you find knowing strategies about how to get great sleep for you actually helped reduce you from getting so fatigued in the first place? Jessica:It was… it was a completely different perspective from… with him. Like I completely understood how me and him had to rest together, how… I just, like the first one I was just so… I mean I really was going in blind. Like I can’t believe how blind it was really. And then the second one, I really just, I’d studied a lot and I really… I really got this whole concept of… of… I don’t know, just connecting and that he needed me. And that if he needed me, that’s what I needed to do. And sometimes that’s hard obviously. Sometimes you can’t do that unless… Carly:Yeah. Jessica:But kind of accepting that instead of thinking of it as something I always had to fix, that was kind of, that was big for me. Carly:It’s amazing how much energy you spend… Jessica:Yep. Carly:… just with anxious doubts and things like that too, which if you don’t have those doubts so much anymore you… you’re not really sending your energy that direction anymore. Jessica:Yep. Yeah, it was just like it was gone. Like, I didn’t see it the same way anymore. I just shot completely differently. So it wasn’t super hard. The only thing I did do was just kind of for my own… I think I almost did it more in case someone comes. Yes. I put a bed beside… I put a side crib, right? And he did go in the side crib and I… he went in the side crib for naps and, you know, things like this. And there was a few nights he slept through the night, he did sleep in that side crib. But about 6 months, this is what I did with my first two in the end and I was like, this is what I’m doing with the next – this is my big secret, so everyone listen up. So what I did at 6 months is I put a mattress in his room and that has been my trick. So, that way I’m able to lay with them and put them to sleep and, you know, snuggle. But then I can come in and out. And they really get used to [20:00] sort of their own space and they like it and they’re good. But I’m also able to tend to them. Like, my little girl, I really slept with her from the very beginning. I was not worried. I had a broken tailbone and I couldn’t sit up to nurse. So I was like, screw this. Learn more about floor beds Carly:Ouch. Jessica:I’m not doing that… and then COVID hit. I was like I… I literally kept being like I need to put her in the… because of my medicine I worry when they’re like 6 weeks old and they’re really, really, really little. So, am I going to need to put her in the thing? I couldn’t. I was so tired, so comfy, so perfect with this little thing that it just… it just never happened. So anyway, I don’t think in… I don’t think they are at risk but I just, when they’re so tiny there’s something in me that’s like put them over. You know? Carly:You know what? And this is the thing, isn’t it? In the research when they talk about like risk minimisation… Jessica:Yeah. Carly:Like with a newborn they do talk about having that safe, separate space, but the thing with risk minimisation is also if you are going to fall asleep still being on that safely prepared shared surface, that’s risk minimisation right there. So you knew in yourself that… Jessica:Yeah. Carly:… that was where you were going to be, and I’m sure you had that prepared for that. Jessica:Well that’s it. I… I’m so much more prepared for what could happen because I… my first was so much more unsafe with me walking around, you know, falling asleep as I’m trying to put him to sleep, than my children when I would fall asleep in the bed with them. And I mean to me that was so logical. And you know, honestly, it’s really interesting to me how people make it so… such a demonised thing because, you know, children die in adult beds. I mean it happens. But far more children die in car accidents, and we don’t really like tell people not to put kids in cars. Carly:It’s that whole risk… it’s understanding risk, isn’t it? So, because… Jessica:We put them in a safe car seat, we try our best. Carly:We minimise it. That’s what we do. Jessica:We minimise, and that… Carly:Yeah. Jessica:And that’s what I think this is and a lot of the… a lot of the information is just so ideological and idealistic and it’s not taking into consideration all the different components. Right? Like my little girl now… Carly:That’s right, we need… we need the practical application of the ideology to make sure that families understand that in their context. Jessica:Yep. My… my third, like I said, like right from the beginning, and it was just during COVID, she’s not 20 months. So, I held her just nonstop. We were like staying with family. It was a messy time, and I just had the two boys just running wild around this house that wasn’t even mine. Didn’t have a kitchen and I had a newborn. So, I would just… and plus my broken tailbone, so I’d just sit on this couch with this newborn just like, I’m just going to hold my baby and just hope that it gets better. Carly:Did you sniff her head? Did you do lots of head sniffing, just get those oxytocin hits from the newborn? Jessica:Yeah. She was so lovely too. Like she just was such a little snugglebug, and just an easy baby. Same thing though, she did that sleep through thing around 3 months. But I knew what was happening this time. Carly:You didn’t fall for it this time. No. Jessica:Yeah. I didn’t fall for it. But I will say, she is the one who… like she sleeps through here and there. And even at 19 months, like she usually sleeps through unless she’s sick. And like she’s still nursing but she’ll go the whole night not nursing. Like, I feel like meeting those needs really young, letting them know I’m there, I’m always there when they need them, they… it really did build that security. Like, and I don’t think I even expected it to build it that quickly with her, but it did. Like, it’s obviously her personality because the 8 year old’s still up here too. He’s nice and secure but he’s… he’s here. Carly:But it’s the only way that like… Jessica:But at the same time it was like I guess she’s probably just more independent like I am. I’m more of an independent sleeper. And… but because I met her needs she’s not, you know, she does wake up and settle herself sometimes. Like she’s just not overly… I don’t know, she doesn’t have the same needs that way. So… Carly:And that’s the beauty of being a responsive parent, isn’t it? It’s not like you have any expectations for what she needs. You’ve listened to her and you’ve listened to your boys to be your guide on what they need. Jessica:Yes. Well… Carly:And each individual’s different. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:So… Jessica:So, the middle one there, he’s really interesting because he was sleeping through the night all by himself and then we had to move. And when we moved it was all of a sudden and him and my husband and the other… like my two boys, all of the boys were sharing a bed. So, now he’s back to sharing with my husband and loves co-sleeping with my husband. And a really big part of this story is the fact that my husband was raised [25:00] in a co-sleeping home, and he was raised… like he slept with his dad like off and on into his teens. He remembers going down as a child all the time and just sort of curling up with him on the couch or something, or going to the bed with his mum and sleeping with his mum, and there was a huge level of acceptance there. And he’s the one who now is like, ‘I really don’t want them to grow out of co-sleeping.’ He’s literally devastated. So… Carly:Well, it’s a beautiful thing though, to know that it’s always on offer. Jessica:Yeah. Oh yeah. Carly:I think it’s a real strength that we are able to offer our babes to know that at any point in time they would be welcome. Jessica:Yeah. Well, his father… Carly:Because like you say, they might grow… Jessica:They both really love it. Carly:Yeah, and it kind of goes in cycles. Jessica:Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing to watch. I’m not as… like he’s just so openly loving with them. Do you know what I mean? And I don’t, like I obviously am, but I can see him at 60 still, you know, coming into his kids’ house and just like showering them with hugs and kisses. Carly:That’s beautiful. Jessica:Like, he’s the… yeah. So, that’s a huge part of it, and I think I talk to a lot of parents who don’t have that support on the other side. So, yeah. Carly:It is actually… I’m actually contemplating whether we need to see if he’ll come on the show for me, because I would actually love to hear a bit about his story as somebody who had that as their background. Jessica:I won’t let him come on the show because he… he will probably not behave himself. He would love to be interviewed about lots of things. Me and my friends have decided he’s not allowed on. Carly:That’s hilarious. Oh. Jessica:He’s quite a jokester. So… Carly:Oh. That could be a really fun episode then. But anyway, we can talk about this when we’re not on here. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:But I just love that idea of someone who has been nurtured in that way then… Jessica:Yep. Carly:… being able to nurture their own babes and seeing how naturally that was able to come to him… Jessica:Yeah. Carly:… as opposed to people like you and I where it really came as a shock that, oh, okay. Yep. That’s what a human baby wants and needs. Jessica:Yeah, and what’s interesting is… Yeah, well when the babe… he’s not – he would probably tell you this, but he’ll say I’m not too into babies. You know, as people will say. But, so he wasn’t super helpful with the babies. I will be honest with you. But he really like with the first one, like he didn’t say anything. With all my franticness and all my whatever I was doing, he just kind of let me do whatever it is I was doing. And then once I kind of said, you know, I like this co-sleeping thing, or I researched it, or I don’t know how it even came up, I remember right away he’s like, ‘Oh yeah, well I co-slept with my parents. Yeah.’ I’m like, ‘Oh yeah, you did.’ Carly:Mate. You could have said it earlier. Oh, that’s hilarious. Jessica:Well, because I’m the… I’m the professional. Right? So I think especially back then he was very like, you know, she knows what she’s doing. I’m not going to get in the way. Obviously after eight years of parenting he now has a bigger voice that way. But yeah. He’s like, ‘I don’t care what the book says.’ Carly:Isn’t that funny. It’s so funny, because there you were feeling all lost and clueless. Jessica:Yeah. Carly:And he’s like, nuh, she’s got this. It’s like, errr. Jessica:Exactly. Carly:You’re really not in each other’s heads at that time. My husband and I were the same. We were not, not in any way clear on where we were at. That’s for sure. Now, I’m just looking at the time… Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, and he worked a lot, right? What are you going to do? Yeah, you were looking at the time. Carly:Just, I’m just having a look at the time and we’re coming up our 30 minutes, but before we finish up I always love to get a tip from our people just for the listeners. Do you have a tip you’d like to share? Jessica:My tip would be to follow what your family needs. Don’t look at a chart. Don’t look at a schedule. Don’t look at a time. Like, if a 9 o’clock bedtime or a 10 o’clock bedtime is what works for your family and your child is not too tired the next day, do that. Don’t worry about, you know, what it says here, what it says there. Do what works for your family. Carly:Absolutely. And no need for second guessing for yourself at all, because that’s always going to be the right choice for you on that given night, because it might be different again tomorrow. Jessica:You can feel when something is not right. So, you really got to start listening to that… that piece inside of you that tells you, mm, I like this, or, mm, I don’t like this. You know. Carly:It’s a powerful tool and it’s one that sometimes we need to… it’s almost like you’ve got to… Jessica:We keep ignoring. Carly:Okay, you’ve got to turn the volume up. Jessica:Yeah, exactly. Carly:Turn your volume up and don’t turn it back down, because once it’s up it’s going to be your very best guide along with your child… Jessica:It is. Carly:… for what’s going to be the right thing for your family. Jessica:Because no one knows what’s going on in your house. Nobody really knows what’s happening in your house and what’s really going to work for your house. So, you can take what you see and you can take what resonates with you, but you really got to think about what actually works for you. Tuning into your instincts Carly:Absolutely. And I think that’s a fantastic note to finish that episode on. [30:00] So, thank you so much for coming on, Jessica. It was an outstanding experience getting to hear your story. And for all of our listeners, I really would love for you to check out Jessica’s work, especially as your babes grow, because Jessica’s work will work, or is going to help you as your babies grow right into toddlerhood, on to school age or not going to school, depending on how you like to approach education with your family. But if you find, I’ll drop all of her links into the show notes for you to explore, and I can’t recommend her any more highly than that. So thank you so much Jessica. Jessica:Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure. Carly: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. 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