Podcasts Terese Collings on letting go of the shoulds and focusing on learning your baby and allowing them to learn you Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Terese shares what she did to prepare for her first baby, and how the advice she received led her to not identify feeding issues and caused her to question herself. Terese then shares how she let go of the shoulds, learned her baby's cues, watched her baby learn about her, and how different her second birthing and feeding experience was. Enjoy the podcast? Donate now to help us produce Season 3 Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and with me today is my neighbour, Terese Collings. Hi Terese. Terese:Hi. Carly:So it’s a little bit of a different episode for me today, because normally my guests are somewhere remote and usually very far away from where I live, seeing as I live in the Australian outback. But I’m very lucky to have Terese as a neighbour straight across the road from me, and she’s joining us today to talk a bit about sleep with her family. So, welcome to the show, Terese. Terese:Thanks. Carly:And would you like to tell our listeners who’s who in your little family? Terese:In my zoo. Carly:In your zoo. Your crew. Terese:Um, yeah. So, we’ve got three, well, nearly three little ones. Three under 3. All 3 and under. Carly:Oof. Woof. Terese:So, yeah. We’ve got Kora, who’s 3, then we’ve got Amariah, who’s 2 next month. And then we’ve also got a teenager in the house at the moment, being a 14 year old, so that’s an interesting sleep comparison. Carly:Yeah, so you’ll have to talk a bit about teen sleep as well. Terese:And then obviously myself and my husband, Ross. So, yeah. Quite a varying range of… Carly:You’ve got the blended family going on. Terese:… sleep. Yeah. Carly:Lots of age ranges there. So tell us, how did you think you were going to approach sleep before you had your first baby? Terese:Didn’t even think about it. At all. I just went, oh, you just put them down for sleep and they’re good. That was that. No more thought. Carly:Easy as that. Terese:No more thought. Carly:So… Terese:Absolutely no more thought. Carly:So, with your husband, because he’s had – he’s got his two older boys. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Did he have any…? Terese:So he did FiFO (Fly in, Fly out work) with them when they were younger. Carly:Ah. Terese:So, for the first year of the 14 year old’s life he was working away for up to 13 weeks at a time. So he had no… nothing. Carly:So really his first experience as well. Terese:So we both went in with a, oh, okay, like everyone just puts them down in their cot. Like, that’s what happens. Okay, no worries. And so my first encounter with the whole ‘my kid’s not sleeping’ was the second night in hospital. Carly:Second night syndrome. Terese:Yeah. Carly:If anyone hasn’t heard of it before… Terese:I hadn’t. Carly:It’s a thing. Terese:I literally hadn’t at that time. And so I was like, this is bizarre. Like, she’s okay when she’s on me. She’s not okay when she’s down in the little crib thing. Like, what is going on? Like, is it hurting her? Like, what’s in the mattress? What’s this? What’s that? And I was like, can you please just sleep. Like, I just… I just… Carly:Where’s the off button? Terese:Yeah. So, I really struggled with that a lot. And then as time went on, like she started just sleeping in her cot, and then she started not liking it when it was too cold. And then we started going, okay, like, is it too cold? Is it too hot? Is it too this? And we went straight to external factors. Carly:Factors. Yeah. Environment. Terese:So, something’s wrong with, like around her, that she’s not sleeping. Just didn’t even go, ‘Oh, the kid just wants to be held.’ Carly:Yeah. And so did she let you know that in any…? Terese:Oh yeah. Yeah. She let, she let us know that, very clearly that you just have to hold me. Carly:I need some more cuddles. Terese:And then I kind of went, oh, this is what this is. Carly:Mm. Terese:And then like, I would just spend my time sitting on the lounge with her and she would sleep, and I’m going, okay. Then you wait, you know, certain varying times, and you’d start timing how long she was on your for and then go put her down, and then she’d wake 20 minutes later and like, ‘Oh, I got the time wrong’. Like, go back, start again, try again. And no. Just… Carly:Want… Terese:Just wanted to be held. Carly:And so that was when she was a tiny babe? Terese:Yeah. Carly:Or was this since she was getting bigger? Terese:No. So that’s when she was a tiny one. And then come 3, 4 months she started sleeping quite alright. Like, she was sleeping through most of the night, because we started having to use formula when she was 10 weeks old. I could no longer breastfeed, so she was always, like she liked the bottle and then she’d have her dummy. [5:00] And come, yeah, 3, 4 months she was pretty in her little routine. Bottle feeding information Carly:Yep. Terese:Um, but she would feed on me to sleep, and then I’d put her down and she was fine. Carly:Beautiful. And I love that too, so like with bottle feeding for your babes as well, did you find holding them while you fed them was a great way to make sure they got their snuggles in? Terese:I was kind of like, how do you feed any other way? And people would be like, ‘Oh, just put them in the cot with the bottle.’ I’m like, no. Don’t know how you do that. Carly:Yeah, and you miss out on the cuddle. Terese:But I was like, you… how do you know that, how much she’s had? And how do you know that’s actually drank it and it’s not all through the cot and like, I was like, ‘I can’t do that.’ You can’t just chuck her in the cot and go, ‘There’s your bottle. See you later.’ Carly:Yeah. So, safety-wise… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… it just made sense. Terese:Yeah. Carly:And also you get hold your baby. Terese:Yeah. Carly:So bonus. Terese:I was like, plus like she’s not feeding from me, so the next best thing’s she’s on me when she’s feeding. Carly:Yeah, I think that’s a great comparison too. Terese:Like, ‘cause… Carly:Like when you think about what a breastfed baby would have been doing, they would have been there. Terese:Yeah. Yeah. So if I was doing what I thought I would be… Carly:Yeah. Terese:…she would be… Carly:Right there. Terese:Yeah. So, we kind of did that, and then Ross would do the skin on skin stuff. Like, he’d sit with his shirt off and feed her like the bottle to try and have that attachment. Carly:Yeah. Terese:So his attachment with the younger kids is very different to attachment with the older two. He’s definitely had a lot of challenge in developing that, so that’s been interesting for him. It’s been like a completely different experience for his side as well. And even like with sleep, like he’d come home from night shift, and if she was struggling to sleep he would lay down in bed with her next to him. Carly:Lovely. Terese:Like, and that was his bonding. Carly:Beautiful. So he was more than willing to be a part of… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… that process as well? That’s fabulous. Especially like when he’d had such a different experience with the first two kids… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… and he missed a lot of those opportunities with them. Terese:Yeah. Carly:So did, did that come naturally to him? Like, that he wanted to be able to do that? Terese:Yep. Carly:Or did you prompt it along? Terese:Nope. That was him. He just went, ‘No, I didn’t get like anything like this with the… my two kids. Like, I want… this is how I want it to be.’ He was very much a, like it’s your body, it’s your choice around how you birth and everything. He’s like, ‘I would like to breast… like, breastfeed. Like, I’d like our kids to breastfeed.’ That was his one thing where he kind of went, ‘I know it’s your body, it’s your choice, but that’s my input in that space.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:And I went, I’m fine with that. Unfortunately, she had other ideas, and that was just a very messy time. And then, yeah, he would feed the bottle, but he always did it in a way that was more focused on the connection than just, ‘Here’s your bottle.’ Carly:Beautiful. ‘Cause it’s so much more than food, isn’t it? Terese:Yeah. Carly:Regardless of what’s going into babe, whether it’s breastfeeding or formula feeding. Terese:Yeah. Carly:The whole experience of being fed is meant to be an experience. Terese:Yeah. Carly:It’s not meant to be just putting food into a body. Terese:Exactly. Exactly. And then of course, ‘cause they’re so little, most feed to sleep. So it’s like that’s their, you know. Carly:Comfort. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Beautiful. Terese:And safety and everything, so… yeah. Carly:I love that. I love that it was like understood… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… amongst the pair of you that that’s what she needed… Terese:That’s what it was. Carly:… and that’s what was going on there. Terese:Yeah. Carly:So you could actually protect it I guess, especially when you’re hearing from other people that you just put them in the cot. Terese:Yeah. Put them in the cot. Yeah. Carly:Oh, well, I’m pleased that you were both on the same page for that. And so you said that she was sleeping through pretty early on. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Did that change for her through times when she was developing or anything like that? Sleep and development Terese:Oh yeah, like if she was teething or anything like that she’d wake a few times during the night. Some nights, like, there were a couple where Ross literally put her in the pram and was walking her around, ‘cause she wasn’t happy being held, wasn’t happy being rocked, wasn’t happy being, you know, anywhere, and he was like, ‘Oh, I don’t know what else to do,’ so we’d go and get the pram and he would literally walk laps around the house with her in the pram. And then she’d finally fall asleep and he’d be like, ‘I don’t want to take her out.’ Carly:Literally we had that too. We had this cul-de-sac that we live in, with one, a couple of our babies, when it was just nothing else for it… Terese:Yeah. Carly:We’d take ‘em out. Lappies, lappies. And then you get that nerve-racking back across the threshold. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Can I stop yet? Terese:Yeah. And I was like, I don’t like this. This is like way back at the beginning where I was timing and stuff. I was like, ‘I’m not doing this.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:I’d say, ‘I can’t do this.’ Carly:Well, and you do, you kind of stress out thinking that, oh, if I start this they’re going to want me to do it forever, kind of feeling. Terese:Well, ‘cause that’s what everyone tells you. Like, don’t get them used to that. And it’s like, aahh. Carly:Don’t get them used to what? Like they need that in that moment. Terese:Yeah. Yeah. Carly:It’s like… Terese:Yeah. Carly:It’s just not forever, is it? Terese:No. Whereas now we’re kind of like, whatever. Go away. Carly:It works. Let’s do it. Terese:Yeah. Carly:We’re good. Terese:Yeah. And like sometimes it’s frustrating, ‘cause it’s like, you know, when you’ve got two or three that need you. Carly:Yeah. Terese:It’s like, aahh!. Like, ‘Hang on. Just hang on a second.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:‘I’ll just do this and then I’m there.’ [10:00] Like, unh. Carly:Yeah, logistics. Terese:I’m coming. I’m coming. Like, it’s okay. Carly:Yep. Terese:But yeah, it’s a challenge but at the same time, yeah, the frustration around people going, ‘Oh, don’t do that,’ or like, you know, ‘Oh, you shouldn’t do that.’ ‘Oh, we used to just do this.’ And it’s like, ‘Okay, thanks.’ Carly:Yeah. Thanks for the tip, we’re good. Terese:Yep. Carly:Pretty much. Terese:In a nice way. Carly:Yeah, yeah. And so during the day what were her sleeps like generally? Where were they and how was she managing that? Terese:So, like at the beginning she would sleep for four hours at a time, and then she would wake, and I used to think it was ridiculous. Carly:Wow. Terese:Like, not enough. I was like… Carly:Oh my gosh. Terese:Because everyone said that. Carly:Meanwhile everyone’s listening going ‘Holy… Terese:Hell, yeah. Carly:…moley.’ Terese:That’s like the dream baby. Carly:Yeah. Terese:Yeah, I know that now. Um, but at the time, like because I was never interested in being a mum. It wasn’t my thing. Carly:Wasn’t your thing? Terese:Nup. And when I met Ross he had the two boys and we went, that’s… that’s enough. We’re good. Like, we don’t need kids. And then along came little miss 3. And I went, ‘My life is over.’ Had a meltdown. Took half the pregnancy to come to terms with, okay, we’re actually having a baby. And so I was essentially in denial, so never read anything to do with babies. ‘Cause I was like, no. Carly:Not even ready to be doing it, full stop. Terese:I’m not there. Carly:Yeah. Terese:I’m not reading about it. I’m not reading all the books. I’m not doing all of that. Like, I’m not doing it. And people would always ask me, ‘What book are you reading?’ Like, ‘Have you read this one?’ And I’m like, ‘I’m not reading any books. I’m not doing that.’ Carly:Which might have actually been your saviour in the end. Terese:And so then when she came along and all these things popped up I was like, ‘What is that?’ Like how… and I was like, ‘Oh, maybe I should have read a book.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:Maybe I should have done this. And then I was like, ‘Actually, no. Like, and then our biggest thing was just letting go. Like, just… Carly:Yep. Terese:You are not going to be able to keep living how you were. You have to let that go. And this is now. Carly:It’s like a process of… Terese:And… Carly:…grieving your old life while you’re beginning your new one, isn’t it? Terese:Yeah. Carly:Because it’s… it is. It’s life-changing. Terese:And it’s like, I don’t want to resent you, but… Carly:Yeah, yeah. Like those feelings are so… Terese:Yeah. Carly:I don’t know many people who can get through that first baby experience without feeling some resentment. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Some missing your old life. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Some… Terese:And then all the guilt comes in… Carly:Yes. Terese:…when people start going like, ‘Oh but like, you know…’ Carly:It’s the best days of your life. Terese:Yeah. And there are some people that are struggling. You should be grateful. Carly:Oh. I am grateful. Terese:Yeah. But I’m not… Carly:You can be both. Terese:I’m not discrediting their journey, but mine’s very different. So… Carly:Yeah. Well, I think for anyone listening along, if you’ve had those feelings too, don’t feel like you’re alone. And there’s a… a process they talk about now, Matresence. What is Matresence? Terese:Yeah. Carly:And I’ve heard that they’re also starting to realise there’s also Patresence for the dads as well, and the partners, and it’s… it is a real thing. It’s a massive shift in your body systems. It’s the equivalent of adolescence, but in… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… in parenthood. And so in that time you’re going to go through massive upheavals, including feelings of missing your old life. Terese:Yep. Carly:But the good news is, is it’s a process, and you come out the other end of it and there’s… Terese:There is an end. Carly:Yeah, there is an end, but it doesn’t take you back to your old life. Terese:No. Carly:That person’s now… Terese:Different. Carly:… gone. Yeah, you’ve changed. Terese:Yeah. Carly:But it will end up being a richer version of you, so that’s the narratives around getting your old life back or… Terese:That doesn’t happen. Carly:It’s like a bizarre goal to set yourself up for, because it… Terese:It’s failure. Carly:Well, it literally doesn’t exist anymore, like… Terese:It’s failure. Carly:Yeah. And… Terese:Like, that’s not, yeah. Carly:Pre-kid you’s not around anymore. Terese:No. Carly:So, but yeah. Terese:Nup. Carly:No. At all. Terese:That’s cool. Carly:Yeah, that is… Terese:That’s what you grieve. Carly:So if you’re still in the process of grieving, sorry if we’ve just been a bit harsh on the reality of it all. But you’re not alone. We definitely, I definitely felt it heavily, and Terese has felt it. Terese:Yep. Carly:And I don’t think there’s many people out there who haven’t had… had that to an extent as well. And that’s also in your partnership, isn’t it? Terese:Yeah. Carly:So you kind of grieve that, that… Terese:Your whole relationship changes. Everything changes. Carly:And it has to. Terese:Yeah. Carly:If it, like… Terese:Yeah. Carly:It has to. It’s not a… Terese:‘Cause you no longer look at each other and just go, ‘Oh, we’re so romantic.’ We’re this, we’re that. It’s not a, ‘I just changed the last ten nappies. You’re on. Like, that’s a you.’ Or, like you know, ‘I’ve just been rocking for two hours. This next lot’s yours.’ Carly:The baby’s yours. Terese:Like, yeah. Carly:Yeah. Terese:It becomes a… Carly:Like, no kiss at the door, how was your day? It’s a, ‘Here’s a baby.’ Terese:Here’s a baby. See ya. Carly:I’m having a shower. See ya. But yeah, but it is, it’s also that. And I think relationships evolve through that time as well. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Like, I know we’ve been through rough, rough patches at times. Terese:Oh gosh. Carly:But it’s also understanding that it’s part of the process. Terese:Yeah. Carly:You’re not necessarily doing anything wrong. And being able to ride those waves together is pretty important I think. Terese:[15:00] I think it’s also being open… Carly:Yeah. Terese:… with your partner. Like, acknowledging that, you know, yeah, we are never going to be there anymore. Carly:The pre-kid. Terese:Like, you know, it’s just not going to happen. Carly:There is older couples, like there are older children versions of couples and stuff too that you look, like you know, the relationship evolves over the years. Terese:Oh yeah. Carly:So, like I know even my relationship now with my husband with our kids being out of that baby stage… Terese:Yeah. Different again. Carly:Because you can be. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Like it’s… like, it’s not, we’re not doing anything magical to have… Terese:No. Carly:…reconnected or anything, but we can… there’s just space. Terese:Yeah. Carly:There’s space for us to be reconnected and, but we’re really proud of how we managed to stick together through really tough times at times with babies. But anyway, so this is, sounds like with first babe, big baptism of fire, but actually relatively cruisy little dude. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Not that you knew it. Terese:No. She was like, she was, yeah. Carly:Cruisy, cruisy kid. Terese:Yeah, four hour chunks, woke, fed. At the beginning she would take an hour and a half to breastfeed of a night-time. I got told that was normal. No issues. All the rest of it. I’d never actually experienced a letdown. So looking back now I’m like, I can see… Carly:Yeah. Terese:… where the feeding went sideways. Carly:South. Yep. Terese:But I didn’t know it at the time, ‘cause everyone was like, ‘Oh, you’ve got heaps of milk. You look like you’ve got heaps of milk.’ You’ve got this. You’ve this. Right? Carly:Because you can look like you’ve got heaps of milk? Terese:And I was like, ‘Oh, okay. Like you guys must know what you’re talking about because you guys are working in a hospital. So…’ Carly:Ah ha. Terese:‘Surely if you’re saying it…’ Carly:Yeah. But it wasn’t what you were seeing. Terese:No. Carly:Mm. Terese:And so, yeah, an hour and a half. So, she’d be awake for two hours and then go back down for four. So, but after having the 21 hour labour I was just exhausted. Carly:Yeah. Terese:So, I just kept rolling into this lovely, messy… Carly:Exhaustion. Terese:Yeah, that never really resolved. Carly:Nah. Terese:So, like lasted for months. Carly:Yeah. Terese:And obviously Ross was 7 and 7. He didn’t have leave banked up because we were using leave for the boys at the time, so he had to go back to work two, three days after she was born. Carly:Oh. Terese:Like after I came home. Yeah. Carly:First baby. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Oh. Ouch. Terese:And then my mum left the day after I came home from the hospital, so it was literally like a… Carly:You’re in. Terese:You’ve laboured. Here’s a baby. Carly:No recovery. Terese:Everyone’s out. Carly:Oh my gosh, Terese. Far from ideal. Terese:And so that, yeah, so that’s where our, like I kind of went, what do I do with this little, crying thing? Carly:Thing. Yeah. Terese:Like, this was… Carly:And you were looking at each other like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And she’s looking at you going, I don’t know what I’m doing either. So… Terese:So we were like, okay. I was like, Rightio, well, we’re in this together. So, let’s just try and make this work. Carly:Yeah. Terese:And, yeah, so I struggled a lot with her as a newborn and working through all that. And then as time went on I kind of went, this is easy. Like, why was I so… Carly:‘Cause it was really hard at the start. Terese:… antsy and like… but just really, you know, like, oh, it should be this way. It should be this way. It should be this way. And I was like, this is… Carly:You were trying to keep up with the shoulds. Terese:Yeah. And like people were always, ‘Oh, like you know, you can do so much. Like, oh, we’ll see you out all the time.’ Like, you know… Carly:Who said that? Like what? Terese:It’s a little baby. Like so many people were saying it to me, I was like, oh, okay. Carly:How are they…? They must have been a long way out of having babies. Terese:I’d say so. They had to have. Looking back I’m like, you had no idea what you’re saying. So, and then now, like having second bub, I was like, yep, okay. Like, I know what to… Carly:It’s familiar. Terese:I’m comfortable with. Carly:Yeah. Terese:And so then that’s when I paid more attention to the feeding side of things. And then I noticed when things were going a bit sideways, and then we were able to pull it back on track and… Carly:Nice. Terese:… things like that. So I was like, no, now I’m confident. Carly:That is… Terese:‘Cause I was like, I’m comfortable to go, ‘No.’ Like, this is what I want. Carly:So you went in. Did you, like what, what were you looking for? And what did you try and change that helped? Terese:So, I… I let go of the expectation of the shoulds. And I was like, you know what? I just don’t care anymore. Carly:Yeah. Terese:Like, at the end of the day, like we had a 16 month old who was thriving. So… Carly:Oh yeah, by the way. Yeah. 16 months survived, just quietly. Yeah. So she was thriving. Terese:Okay. So she was thriving. She was happy. Like, always happy. She was very colicky as a baby as well, but I think that was just a combination of like everything that was happening. And now I’m like, ooh, like is colic linked to your gut health? What am I looking for now as you’re getting older? Like… Carly:Yep. Terese:You know, and things like that. So, I think I just became a lot more comfortable to go, ‘No, I think… I think we’re good.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:Like we’ve got a 16 month old who’s fairly chunky. Carly:Pretty happy with how she’s going. Terese:She’s alright. She’s fine. Carly:[20:00] Yeah. Terese:So, we’re good. And then when it came to conversations around birthing second bub, I was like, ‘No, I don’t want to be in the hospital.’ I’m like, ‘I’m not comfortable in the hospital. I want to be at home.’ And so that’s when they said, ‘Oh, you can do six-hour discharge.’ And I was like, ‘Perfect. Sign me up for that.’ Because like, if everything’s all good and I don’t actually need… Carly:To be there. Terese:… medical monitoring… Carly:Yep. Terese:I don’t want it. And they were like, ‘Oh, okay. Are you… are you sure?’ I was like, I’m fine. Carly:So when they discharge you, do you get like midwife support at home? Or how does that work? Terese:Yeah. Yeah. So, I’m part of MGP, so Midwife Group Practice. So, I get a, my assigned midwife as such. And they’ve got an off partner for when they’re not on, then you get the alternative. So it works out well. And she comes round and visits every week for the first six weeks after bub’s born. Carly:Beautiful. Terese:So… Carly:And for anyone listening along too, like it’s not an offer everywhere, but it is something that’s been a proven model for best outcomes for mums and babies… Terese:Yeah. Carly:… is having a known midwife. Terese:It’s a lot more relaxed. Carly:Yeah, definitely. It’s just a… and I gave birth here too, but I managed to dodge that. They never had the group practice up and running when I had my babies, so I missed it. Terese:I think they’d only just started it with the… so all three of our kids will be through MGP. Carly:Yeah, awesome. Terese:Yeah. ‘Cause they’d only, I’m pretty sure they only just started it with our first. So, what’s that? That would be four years ago for the pregnancy. Carly:Yeah. They were talking about it, and I, I think there was a gap in staffing or something when I had my third baby. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Because I remember like being so keen to access it. But I’ve only heard good things about it. It’s a really great program. Terese:It is great. Yeah. Carly:So hopefully we’re seeing more and more of that rolling out around Australia and the world, because it really is an excellent model for the wellbeing of families. Terese:Yeah. Carly:So, it’s really worthwhile. So, with your second love, I’m just, I’m wondering how did it… like did you approach or think you were going to handle it differently with her? Or, and how did it go? Terese:Ah yeah. So, obviously having first bub I was a little bit more prepared than no books and I can do whatever. It’s fine. Like, just ignore it. It’ll work itself out. And I had more of a, okay, like I’m just going to have babywear bub a lot, and this is what I’m going to do, and this is how I’m going to manage having a toddler and a newborn and that’s just that. Like, it’s going to be messy. It’s going to be yucky. And I was already preparing myself for messy and yucky, as opposed to going, ‘Oh, it’s just going to be it’ll just pop in the cot. We just go sit in cafes. Babywearing safety Carly:Yeah. Terese:That’s what you do on mat leave apparently. Carly:Yeah. Terese:So, I was like, no, that is not reality. Carly:You were, you knew the reality of it. Terese:So, I was like, knew it was going to be messy. Carly:Yeah. Yeah. Terese:So I was more prepared. I was more relaxed all messy, as opposed to… Carly:It actually help… Terese:…expectation has to be. Carly:Don’t you think, like I remember, ‘cause like lowering expectations was actually really great for my mental health. Terese:Ooh, yeah. Carly:And I know for some people, they say, you know, you have low expectations, what else are you going to get? But for me it’s like low expectations are realistic when you’re talking babies and toddlers. Terese:Yeah. Carly:So, having low expectations, it kind of sets you up for feeling more like, ah yes, like I knew it was going to be messy. Terese:Yep. Carly:I knew we’d have yucky days and… Terese:Yep. Carly:…whatnot. Terese:Very yucky days. Carly:Yeah. But two under 2, like what else is it going to be? Terese:Yeah. Exactly. Carly:Like that, it’s a very challenging time. Terese:Exactly. Carly:And it doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong. Terese:Nope. I would have comments made of, ‘Oh, you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.’ Like, ‘Two under 2’s really challenging.’ ‘Oh, it’s just, you know, it’s horrible.’ ‘You’re going to look back and wish that you’d waited.’ And I was like… Carly:Really? Terese:Thanks. Carly:Wow. They’re so helpful. Terese:I was like, that’s cool, but… Carly:Like, realistically… Terese:Not one of you have stopped and gone, ‘Oh, did you guys actually plan your second child to be two under 2?’ Carly:Maybe you did. Terese:Well, just kind of not really. Carly:No. Terese:Like, all three of our… this one’s the most planned. Carly:Yeah. Terese:Out of all three. So we were like, ‘Oh, okay. Like, that happened a lot quicker than what we thought.’ Carly:Yeah. Terese:‘Cause like conceiving children I was told by a GP when I was about 19 would be very slim. Carly:Yeah, right. Terese:So… Carly:Yet here you are. Terese:Yeah. I was like, well, that worked out great for me. Thanks. Thanks mate. Carly:Mm. I reckon. Terese:Glad I didn’t rely on that for contraception. Carly:Mm, absolutely. Terese:But like, so that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame, that one. But yeah, like having second bub I went in with less expectation and more of a focus on, do you know what? Like the first year is just messy. Carly:Mm. Terese:And eventually we’ll get there. And eventually, you’ll find a pattern, and eventually, you know, it will be fine. And then I had more of a focus on myself, on those five minutes where both of them just might be sleeping. [25:00] I was like, that’s when I’m going to have my cup of tea. Carly:Yeah. Terese:Like, that’s what I’m going to do. Carly:Pick your moments. Terese:Yeah. Instead of worrying about putting on the washing and stacking the dishwasher then, I’m doing it when they’re awake. Carly:Yes. Terese:Like, you know. Carly:Absolutely. Terese:And things like that. So, I shifted my focus of what I wanted to achieve in those smaller pockets of time. Carly:Yeah. Terese:And I found that helped a lot more. Carly:Yep. Terese:I managed a lot better with my second than with my first. And we had the teenager, he was then 12, turning 13, with us at the time. So… Carly:Well, I’m just looking at our time... Terese:… it was… Carly:… and I reckon I’m going to need to hear more details about this, because I also do want to ask you about teen sleep as well. Terese:Yeah. Carly:Because it’s an interesting dynamic in the household. Do you mind if we do a second episode? Terese:That’s fine. That’s fine. Carly:Alright, well, we’ll finish off this episode with what we’ve had. Do you have a tip that you’d like to give our listeners? Something you would have loved to have heard when you were expecting your first love maybe? Terese:Just embrace it. Let it go. Like, just let go of like, you know, you can read books and stuff, but don’t hold it as like your holy grail. Like, there’s no holy grail for any of it. Carly:And you’re not meeting anyone else’s standards. Terese:No. Carly:It’s not, not really their thing, is it? Terese:It’s… it’s your thing. Carly:Yeah. Terese:And it’s fitting it with you and what you’re comfortable with. Carly:And your babe, isn’t it? Terese:Yep. Yep. Carly:Like, you’ve got your own unique human. Terese:Yeah. Carly:It’s not anyone else’s. They don’t know what you’re dealing with. Terese:Nope. Carly:So… Terese:And you’ll learn them. They’ll learn you. And you just, I don’t know. It’s kind of like it’s a journey, and it’s one that, you know, when you meet your partner do you just go straight to marriage? Like, you know, you kind of have to… Carly:Get to know each other. Terese:… establish that, and that’s essentially what you’re doing with your babe. Carly:Falling in love. Terese:Exactly. Carly:Even if you’re already in love, you fall deeper and deeper, and part of that is that familiarity and… Terese:Exactly. And that’s over time. Carly:Yeah. Absolutely. Terese:Like, your baby’s not going to know you sleeping in a cot. Carly:No. It’s so true. Terese:Sorry. Carly:I love that. Terese:That’s, you know. Carly:There’s a lot of connection to be had in that sleeping time as well. Terese:Yes. Carly:Well, thank you so much for that, that first episode, Terese. I’ve absolutely loved chatting with you. I’m hoping everyone enjoyed listening along and taken a lot from that episode. Make sure you tune in next week to catch the second part of Terese’s episode. Thanks for listening along. 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