Podcasts Donna Smith on her early babies, how her experiences differed from her expectations, and the tools she used to balance it all. Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Donna shares her experience having two early babies, how her expectations around sleep were vastly different to the reality of parenting her wakeful little ones, and the tools she found vital throughout her journey. Enjoy the podcast? Donate now to help us produce Season 3 Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and with me today is one of our wonderful volunteers, Donna Smith. And she’s coming to us all the way from New Zealand. So welcome to the show Donna. Donna:Kia ora. Thank you very much for, for having me Carly. It’s good to be here. Carly:And so how long have you been volunteering for us now, Donna? Donna:Um, I joined up as part of the Sleep… as part of the group when my first boy was about three months. So, 2016. But and then started volunteering after probably about six months or so after, after that. Carly:Now, so you must have been around from the very, very early start, because we only launched in early 2017. So it must have been like right in the early days. One of our founding people, Donna. I love it. Donna:Ah. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know about how much help I’ve actually been as volunteering, but I think it’s a, an awesome support and a great place to actually advocate for our little people. So, yeah. Carly:I love that. Thank you so much for your work, and thank you to all of our volunteers, because it really is the only reason that we’re able to offer that free peer support. If listeners aren’t already a member of our group, be sure to come along and join us on Facebook. We love to have families there so that we can help you right along your journey through Beyond Sleep Training. So, thanks for joining us Donna. Now, to begin the episode I u… would love to hear who’s in your little crew, and how did you think you were going to handle sleep before you had your first baby? Donna:So, my little crew has expanded recently. It started off with me and my husband, Brett. We’ve got Jack, who’s our 5-year-old boy, who’s started school and just started sleeping in his own room, and then we have Bennett, who has – or Ben, who’s just turned 15 months. Carly:Lovely. And so before you had Jack did you have like visions in your head about how you were going to handle sleep in your family? Donna:Yeah, well babies just go to sleep. Yeah? Carly:Course they do. Donna:I’m a… I’m a physio by background and I used to do home visits and we had it drummed into us that we had to make sure that the babies had somewhere that they were sleeping safely and in a separate thing and, um, and go through… and go through all of that with our… with our families. So, it was very much that babies sleep on their own and in their own safe sleep space. So… Carly:And so you’d set yourself up with a bassinet or a cot for babe? Donna:Yeah. Yeah. So, as… as things with kids, everything all went a little bit different. Jack decided to turn up at 35 weeks, when I was in the middle of gypstopping our lounge. So… Carly:Oh my gosh. Donna:So he had a bit of an… a bit of a stay in the neonatal unit, and then when he came home we had a… had a bassinet that he was going to sleep in. Carly:And so how did that turn out? Donna:Yeah. It turns out that we have… have quite wakeful babies. I found sleep with Jack really tricky ‘cause he pretty much is, as a lot of babies like to do, only wanted to sleep on me. When he was in NICU he was a dream. You’d go in and he’d follow this nice routine where he’d, you’d got into a really nice pattern where you’d go in, you’d change his nappy, you’d give him a feed, you’d put him back down, he’s sleep. And then three hours later you’d repeat. And then we got him home and he didn’t want to do that. So, yeah. So, I found that really hard, ‘cause I thought I was failing as a mum, because I couldn’t get him to sleep. And I went to some of the coffee groups and they’d put their baby down and they could walk out and they’d go to sleep. So, around that time I found out about babywearing, which was a gamechanger for me. [5:00] And similar time, it was one of my friends who helped me into babywearing, mentioned about safe co-sleep bedsharing and the Safe Sleep Seven and things. So, yeah. Babywearing safety Carly:Beautiful. Thank goodness for friends who pop along at just the right moments in time. Donna:Yeah, definitely. So, yeah. Carly:And so you discovered the Safe Sleep Seven and babywearing. Did they become go-to tools, or were still finding… Like, how were you actually going about getting babe to sleep and what was your setup at that stage? Safer sleep Donna:Yeah, so that was still quite tricky ‘cause I think especially the evidence out there on babies who’ve been born early and around sleep is still, even now, because my second baby decided to come at 34 weeks, so they’re just getting earlier. It’s still, being a physio, trying to look at evidence-based practice and decision making around there, that was quite a challenge. Babywearing was amazing because it meant I could put Jack on. I could go for a walk, which was great for me. He’d go to sleep and I wouldn’t be stuck at home trying to get this little guy to… to go to sleep in his bassinet. So, and the freedom of being able to… to go and do, do things. And I think also because I’d have to, had to leave him in the neonatal unit and go home without him, actually being able to have that, that extra time and that closeness with him was… was really important as… as well. Carly:Beautiful. Yeah. It definitely facilitates that extra contact, especially like you said, you had that trickier start with him. So, was he still – so by day he’d sleep in the carrier on you. Were you…? How were feeding at this time? Donna:Yeah. No, he had, because he was little and then got jaundice he’d been tube fed with expressed breast milk while was in hospital. And then, yeah, then when we came home, actually that was another challenge. He was just really slow. So, because he was little he’d take an hour to an hour and a half to feed. So, in the middle of the night it was like, okay. But I… my husband was really supportive with that. I used to get up and pump and then do my physio exercises and he’d feed Jack the expressed breast milk and then we’d all go back to bed. So, yeah. So that… so that worked. Carly:And as he got bigger I’m guessing some of the… the pumping, like, because it – that’s called triple feeding, isn’t it? Is that right? Donna:Yeah, I think… Carly:I think that’s what they call that loop. I’m sorry. Donna:Yeah. Carly:But, so that was just while he was little, and once he got stronger that was something you were able to… Donna:Yeah. Carly:Yeah. Okay. ‘Cause that would be… ‘cause that’s kind of like a combination of tricky at night-time then, isn’t it? Because you’re feeding for hours on end, but he’s prem so you’re trying not to have him in a shared space with you. Donna:Yep. Carly:That would have been really hard to stay awake. Did you find that you were… Donna:Yeah. Carly:… falling asleep on occasions doing it? Donna:Yeah, and I think that was the thing where we got to, oh, actually if we do it and he has the bottle we all get back to bed and back to… back to sleep a whole lot easier. And it was… wasn’t… he must have been, we’d gone down to visit my in-laws, and so we were in a different environment and he was unwell. So, it was about that stage when I actually started bringing him into bed for day sleeps and then kind of built up… built up on confidence with… with that. So, that was definitely then. ‘Cause then at night he could just feed. It didn’t matter how long it took. Carly:Yeah. Well, that’s what I was thinking. Because that is, it’s kind of like it adds a layer, and I’m sure people listening along who’ve had prems would have had similar experiences, ‘cause those tiny babies can take so long. But that kind of adds to the likelihood that you’re going to fall asleep unintentionally maybe. Donna:Yep, definitely. Yeah. Carly:Yeah, so having that clear space around you just in case is a really smart move, even if you’re still intending to pop them into their own space afterwards because you have a prem. Yeah, that’s a really important discussion to have and I think, like you said too, you look for the research. But the research is just, it’s actually still a current gap because it’s like a really… it’s a tricky area for them to get enough data on to be able to see trends, to be able to understand what’s actually going on there. And so they do, they add the extra caution if you do have an early baby… Donna:Yeah. Carly:… around shared sleep. But for, yeah, if you’re… if you’re feeling sleepy at any stage, whether you have a prem or not, you need to make sure that you’re on that safe surface for the off chance you do fall asleep. So, thanks for chatting about that with us. So, with him, as he got older [10:00] and stronger and you started sharing a bed with him were you still babywearing by day? And was he still a wakeful little fellow, or did it kind of ease up at different times for you? Donna:Hm. I think I stopped worrying. Like stopped actually thinking about it really. Like, which was… which was easier for me rather than trying to follow like a routine or a schedule. I would just get on with what I… what we wanted to do for the day and if he wanted to sleep then he went to sleep. If he wanted to be awake then he was awake. And we were getting more sleep overnight because we were sharing, and then we’d quite often have a… have a bit of a nice, nice cuddly nap in the afternoon as well. So… Carly:Beautiful. Donna:Yeah. Carly:So, you kind of worked out your pattern on making sure that you… you both got the rest that you needed basically. Donna:Yeah. Carly:Because once you’re doing that there’s, like it does alleviate a lot of that stress and pressure that you feel like… like you’re not in crisis mode anymore so you can just carry on. Donna:Yeah, and definitely, and I think things I found, like we went over to Waiheke Island, which is just out of Auckland, for a daytrip. And because Jack would sleep on me, we just jumped on the ferry. I took the buggy to carry all the gear that we needed. Wore Jack, and he just went to sleep and woke up. Whereas one of my other friends whose littlie needed to be at home and in their cot to sleep, everything was much more rigid around… around sleep times and things as well. So, that was… that was definitely a bonus of a baby who would sleep anywhere as long as he was on me. So, yeah. Carly:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it comes along with different personalities too. Because I know I’ve had one baby who just couldn’t handle sleeping out and about because of the distractions and FOMO, and he needed the quiet, cool, dark areas to find any kind of rest for that crazy little brain that he has. Busy brain I should say, not crazy. And but then I’ve had two other babies who just napped wherever, whenever. Didn’t really seem phased by the action that was going on around them. So yes, embracing that personality, and I love that you could see that, that you had that freedom available, because he was a contact napping, babywearing baby. Very handy. Donna:Yeah. And I think as you’re saying too, it’s amazing how different like having my second baby, like how different they can be with… within that as well. So, yeah. Begin your journey beyond sleep training Carly:Yeah, well we might get onto him, but we’ll get – I just want to know, because so there must be about, what? Three-and-a-half years between your two? Donna:Four-and-a-half. Yeah. Carly:Four-and-a-half? So… Donna:Yeah. Carly:So with your first guy, how did sleep evolve as he became a toddler, into preschool? Or did it… did it have like a bit of a… a steady track to being less needy at night? Or how’s that gone for you? Donna:Yeah, it’s been really interesting. I think it’s changed. Like we’ve been pretty flexible on it. We moved him out of our room when he was eight… oh, he’s been in and out. We moved him out and then we moved him back because we missed him. And then he’s been pretty keen on being… being in, in our bed. So, or coming up, coming in in the middle of the night. We’ve got a massive super king, which is… which is very nice. But when I was pregnant we ended up, we put his toddler bed side-cared onto ours because he was coming in all the time anyway. So at least we had a bit more, a bit more space. Not so much in the bedroom, but in the bed. So he’d been sleeping on his own for about a year then, and then I got pregnant and he… he wanted to be back in with us. And then, so we had… we had a three bedroom house with all of us sleeping in one room. And then yeah, so and then he’s moved out. So we fed, he would still… I went back to work full-time when he was about two-and-a-half, three. So he was still feeding overnight at that stage. So that was really nice to actually be able to go home and still… still have that, yeah. So… Carly:Lovely, and… that’s a really… Donna:Lots of ups, lots of ups and downs. So, yeah. Carly:But it’s great to hear a perspective on a night nursing toddler as well, as it’s being a… a great means of reconnection when you’re being separated by day through work requirements and whatnot. So, it’s really nice for people listening along, once we’ve had a few people who have breastfed toddlers through to natural weaning ages, and it’s… it’s… it’s great to hear different experiences with that because so often people are hearing that they need to night wean earlier and earlier, and so it’s great to get that perspective for people. So thank you [15:00] for sharing that part as well. Donna:And both… both of my boys have been – because I went back to work a bit later with Jack and I’ve been back to work just over a year with Ben, and actually been like, hang on, I don’t actually need to wean them. Like they just seem to manage without me during the day, and when I come they’re like, woohoo. So… Carly:She’s back. Donna:Yeah. Carly:I love that, because yes, it used to be… I know when I had my first guy in… in my like original group of mothers the conversations around returning to work were very heavily focused on weaning, because it just seemed like the thing you needed to do so that your kid could go and be put to daytime sleep some whatnot without you. Whereas we know from the experience of many, many, many working parents in the Beyond Sleep Training Project, including you, that the babies are really adjustable to being able to still nurse when they’re back with you, and doing something different with other carers. Aren’t they? Donna:Yeah. No, I just talked to my husband and apparently Ben slept for about three hours at… at care today. So, we might have a busy night, but yeah. Carly:Yes. Yes. He sounds like he’s going to be a bit of a night owl tonight going by that record. But that, yep, nice one. So we probably should get onto Ben. Tell us about having Ben. How did that, things look when he came along? Donna:Um, so yeah. So we had… we’d had undeniably, partly there’s a big gap I think ‘cause we took a while kind of decide, thinking about whether we wanted to have another child or not. And… and Ben’s just been amazing. Like, he’s been such a blessing. His name actually means little blessed one, and I’m like that… that works well for… for him. And yeah, again he surprised us by deciding to be an unplanned home birth at 34 weeks. So, yeah. That… that was fun. Carly:That would be a nice, little shock. Donna:Yep. Carly:What were you doing at home this time, Donna? Were you… Donna:Well.. Carly:… doing home repairs again? Donna:I wasn’t… I wasn’t doing gypping. Well, to be fair actually, about… we had found out, we’d bought a property and we’d like, right, we’re not doing any renos, we’re having another baby. And then we found that the bathroom was all rotten. So we had, we were actually in the middle of that. So, oh, it’s Braxton Hicks. Run a bath and sit in the bath. And we currently didn’t have a bath at that stage. So, yeah. But it wasn’t Braxton Hicks. So, yeah. Carly:No. Donna:So my husband got to deliver Ben at home outside Jack’s bedroom with Jack watching. So, yeah. So that was not exactly how we thought it would go. Carly:Wow. And so how was Ben? Because that’s pretty early. How were both of you? Donna:Yeah. Well, I was a bit concerned because Jack had had difficulty breathing when he was born, and ended up needing ventilated and having surfactant. Ben was actually fine. I had a… I can’t remember the technical term now. They were a bit concerned about my… my cord. So we’d talked about having to have active delivery of the placenta. I’m not sure obviously. We weren’t really in the right place. Carly:No. Donna:So yeah, but actually yeah, he popped out and he was… he was okay. So we just hung there and waited for the - my midwife actually got there before the ambulance, and luckily we had a… then they’re like, ‘Have you got anything we can put the placenta in?’ And because we’re renovating we had a big, massive dustpan. So, yeah. So, that… that… that was used for catching the placenta. Carly:That is awesome. I love a good birth story, and a sudden home birth, or accidental home birth ones are even better I think. That’s in… that’s impressive. Very well done, you. I’m so glad Ben was okay. So did you have to spend any time being monitored in hospital? Or was he straight home with you? Donna:Yeah. Yeah. No, so that was… so he got born at home and then we’re back in hospital for about three weeks. Carly:Yep. Donna:Just giving him a bit of time to wake up a bit, and he got jaundice as well and then feed a bit and, yeah. So, I was a bit worried about Jack. But we went through and did some… we made a card for our midwife to say thank you, and we did a picture and Jack talked me through the story of what happened. So we’ve got the house and then this blood and the ambulance coming and, um, us waking. Because we’d… we had got Jack up because we were going to drive to the hospital. So, yeah. So… Carly:Wow. And bit of… bit of play therapy going on there. Donna:Yeah. Carly:So, he could draw it out for you. Oh, little guy. You do, it’d be interesting to talk to him as he gets a bit older to see what recollections have stuck [20:00] for him, if there’s any parts that… that stand out still for his little memory. I love that. Donna:Yeah. Yeah, no definitely. Carly:Very interesting. So when Ben did actually get to come home, how did things go? Like, were you planning to do things any differently? Or what… what was the go? Donna:I was planning on going to term. Um… Carly:Well, there’s that. But, you know. Donna:Yeah. Um… Carly:Plans, plans. Donna:Um, yeah. It was… it was tricky because when Jack had been in hospital that was my job, ‘cause he was all, like I used to, we were quite close to the hospital in Auckland, so I used to get up in the morning, have a shower, walk to the hospital, spend all day with him, and then come home and then quite often go in for a night feed as well. And with Ben it was tricky ‘cause we had Jack to try and spend some time with as well. So, in the setup with, we were in Dunedin, which is amazing, but they didn’t have any space on the neonatal unit so I was upstairs anyway. So I decided to go home after a night, because I’m like, well, at least if I’m at home I can spend some time with Brett and Jack, and then come in and spend time… time with Ben. So, Ben probably got… Ben would have got less of me, just because I was trying to spend some time with the… the other boys as, as well. So, yeah. Carly:It makes it really tricky. It’s not like you can split yourself in too many places. So, it’s making the best of the time that you had together. So when you were in with him were you able to have lots of skin on skin and things like that? Donna:Yeah, I had him out like the next day and then… and with my carriers and, yep. Yep. And actually being in the… being a second time NICU mum definitely felt a bit more comfortable in terms of advocating and encouraging some of… some of that stuff. So, yeah. Carly:Beautiful. It would have felt, like I’m sure you, you know, you don’t want to find yourself in that position again, but at least, like you say, you would have had some learnings from that first round to be able to take forward with you this time. So, once you did get home how did you handle sleep with the two of them? Because you said that Jack was in the side-car bed at the time. What did you do with the newborn as well? Donna:He was in the bassinet on the other side. So yeah, it just got… our bed just got wider. So, yeah. So, Ben was in the bassinet, and so initially I was getting up and… I’d go down to the lounge and watch some quality TV and… and feed him and then go back and resettle him. And that worked quite well to begin with, and then he got to the point where he just wasn’t resettling and I think you start having… having all the memories of the stress of not being able to get your littlie to sleep. So, it was about that stage where we, where I switched into having him in bed with us instead. So… Carly:And… and did that help? Was he a bit more settled once he was in bed with you? Donna:Yeah. And I think even for my mindset, over the fact that I was starting to dread nights again and dread the fact that I’d have to try and resettle him and he wouldn’t be able to settle in and then I’d be tired and I wouldn’t be able to settle him and he’d wake up. Or you’d just put him down and then he’d wake up. And… and so yeah, for me it was just like, right, well if he’s in with… in with us then we all get more sleep. So… Carly:And… and you could stop that spiral. Especially when you’ve got to get up the next day and also deal with a toddler. Donna:Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Carly:It’s… it’s a different ballgame, isn’t it? Having the toddler with the second baby. Donna:Definitely. I think that’s the thing. You’re like, that whole, you’ve still got to get to kindy drop offs at some point, and like get back and pick them up and things as well. So your day goes like, is really, really short as… as well. So, yeah. Carly:Yeah, and it’s like a blessing in some ways that you get some brief windows where it’s just baby and you, but it’s also complicated trying to manage all of the logistics of getting kids ready, getting them in the car, or whatever transport you’re using in getting them there. Donna:Oh, and I couldn’t… couldn’t, how long it takes to get two littlies out of the car, out of the house. Carly:Oh. Donna:My husband’s like, what are you doing? And I’m like, it’s like… Carly:My… my husband used to say that and be like, guaranteed someone’s going to poo as we’re about to exit the door. Donna:Yeah. Carly:Guaranteed. Like, there’s like, it’s just like… you can’t. Like you, and just when… if you ever think you are organised, I remember one trip I was taking my… all three of mine out for the first time on my own, and like I’d got everybody out the door. All was going really well. I was just, we were going to the library because they had a story time session at library, and we just got there and I’m thinking, ‘Yes, you finally did it. [25:00] You’re finally at the point where this is going to be okay for getting everyone going.’ Picked up the baby. Covered in poo, up the entire car seat. And so we clipped her back in and drove back home again, didn’t we? ‘Cause that was not a wipe job. Donna:Nuh. Carly:Like that was a full-blown in the bath. Donna:Yeah. Carly:Car seat in the washing machine. Like it was bad. But it was just that, yeah, when you do actually manage to do it, oh, superhero power I reckon. Donna:Yeah, yep. Carly:Yeah, so you were getting your… so he was in bed with you at night-time. You went to that fairly quickly out of the newborn stage. Did that bit continue to be your night-time strategy with Ben? Or has he been in and out as well? Donna:No. Well we were, I was really… I was like, right, got it sorted this time. And we’ll like side-car the cot and we’ll like, I’ll go to sleep and then roll off and… and he can sleep in… in there. But yeah, he’s got other ideas about that. So, he’ll like come and find me. So, yeah. That’s still… we still have the, that’s still the current plan. But, yeah. Carly:Well, he’s 15 months, so they’re still so very, very needy in the night. I found that 12 to at least 18 months, if not… I think there’s something around 20, 21 months as well for my children. I don’t know about yours. But yeah, that… that second year, it’s easier just to roll with them I’ve found. Like it just they… it’s an intense time during the day, so night times I used to just feed and get on with. Donna:Yeah. Carly:Like, as long as I could sleep I was happy. Donna:Yeah. Carly:Very good. And so during the day, just really – oh, I’m looking at the time. Holy dooly, we smashed that half hour. But quickly, tell me. During the day, how were you handling sleep with Ben and a toddler? What were you doing? Donna:Babywearing. Again, amazing. Jack doesn’t… doesn’t have a sleep anymore because he decided he doesn’t want one. So probably too much TV. If we go to have a nap sometimes Jack could go and watch some… some TV. He got… my husband pulled out fairly early on that if he came into the room when we were sleeping he had to have a sleep, so that worked quite well. But yeah, definitely if I was doing kindy drop offs or anything, or pickups, Ben’d just go in the carrier and he’d have a sleep on… sleep on me. So, yeah. Babywearing safety Carly:It’s quite the tool. And also I will say that TV featured in my house too with that, so can we always… we always had a rest time at lunch time. And I had friends who’d set up for quiet activities and stuff, but my toddlers did not do quiet activities on their own. They just didn’t. And so watching a show was what they would do, and so we took that option so that I knew that I could get some time where I’d at least be able to rest either with the baby or have my feet up and… and everybody had some peace in our house for at least half an hour every day. So, I know, for anyone listening along, never feel bad about working out what actually gives you a break in the day and taking it. That’s something that I think everyone who’s survived more than one kid has needed on many occasions. So yeah, keep that… keep that as an option for you. Now because of the time we’re going to have to finish up, but I’m… I’m wondering, do you have a tip you’d love to share with our listeners that you wish you’d known when you were back in the thick of it all with that first baby? Donna:Um, I think probably it’s just actually, comes down to that whole actually just trusting, trusting yourself. That finding what works for you and what works for your… for your littlie. But like we’re saying, they’re so different. So we’ve tried to be, like Jack led and Ben led and… and gone with, with what works… works with them in terms of meeting their needs. So, yeah. Carly:I think it’s… it’s got to be sagest vice… advice out there, ‘cause no other advice is ever really going to work for every single family, because there’s no cookie cutter baby. So, being able to tune into that, into yourself and into your kids, it’s always going to be your best bet. So, thank you for sharing that, Donna, and I’m sure plenty of people listening needed to hear that today. So thank you again for coming on the show with us today. I’ll be dropping some information into notes about safe babywearing practices as well, the TICKS information. If you haven’t already invested in a good carrier or wrap and you’ve got a little snuggle bunny on your hand… hands, then I can highly recommend babywearing as a tool. Like Donna has found, I also found it completely vital. And if you’re expecting a second or third or however many babies, a great time now to also pick it up. And there’s usually babywearing meets and sling meets in many local areas – though COVID has really made that challenging. Donna:Yeah. We’re trying to – I am volunteering for the one down in Dunedin here. And quite a few places have switched to either outside or online babywearing meets. I kind of went down the babywearing rabbit hole and [30:00] and may as… ended up training as a babywearing consultant as well. So… Carly:You go. I love that, because it is, it’s a tool and it’s a skill, but it’s like once you’ve figured out what carrier works for you and what baby’s comfy in, it can be an absolute gamechanger. Although I will say, that’s something that people don’t necessarily realise. They’ll think that baby doesn’t like babywearing. But it could actually be that they were uncomfortable in the type of carrier that you had. So that’s why babywearing libraries and meets are great, because they have like a range of different carriers and you can try them out and see how to get you and baby comfy as well. Donna:Yep. Carly:Awesome. Alright, well thank you so much for coming on the show today, Donna. And I look forward to talking to you again soon. If you see Donna in the group make sure that you are very friendly and say thank you, thank you, thank you, because we love our volunteers so very, very much. Thanks so much Donna. Donna:Cool. Thank you very much for having me Carly, and thank you for all the amazing work you guys do as well. Carly:Thanks Carly: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. 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