Podcasts Kellie Lamond on her experience with her four little ones, including a set of twins, and a travelling hubby Listen/ Watch links: Enjoying the show and you'd like even more? Become a Patron! SUMMARY- Kellie shares her wisdom as a mum of four with a little sparkler, an 'easy baby' and a set of twins, all while her hubby was away for work regularly. Kellie records this episode while managing four kiddos. Enjoy the podcast? Donate now to help us produce Season 3 Full Episode Transcript: Carly: The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast- a podcast dedicated to sharing real tales of how people have managed sleep in their family outside of sleep training culture because sleep looks different with a baby in the house and because every family is different there is no one-size-fits-all approach to take. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kalkadoon people, I pay my respects to the elders of this nation and the many other nations our guests reside in from the past, present and emerging. We honour Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the unique cultural and spiritual relationships to the land, water and seas as well as their rich contributions to society including the birthing and nurturing of children. Carly:Welcome back to the Beyond Sleep Training podcast. I’m your host, Carly Grubb, and with me today is Kellie Lamond. Now Kellie has been a member of the Beyond Sleep Training Project for a fair few years now I believe. Kellie:Yeah. Yep. Carly:Yeah, and she is coming on the show today as someone who’s a super experienced parent and can actually bring a tale of multiples to the mix, because we haven’t had anyone on the show yet who can talk to us about multiples. So I’ve been very excited to get Kellie on. I love interacting with Kellie online. She’s a beautiful, beautiful, gentle person to be following. So, thank you so much for joining us today Kellie. Kellie:Thank you. Nice to be here. Carly:Now Kellie’s got little people around, so you’re going to hear some voices in the background, and that’s actually just how things are and that’s how we get things done, so we’re very grateful you could come on with us anyway. Now Kellie, can you start with telling us who’s in your little fam? Kellie:Okay. [Child’s voice] I’m just talking to this lady, Carly. You go watch Blaze. So, we have a 7-year-old daughter, Annabel, a 5-year-old son, Brady, and then we have not quite 3-year-old twins, Hamish… Hamish and Madeline, who have both come to say hi. Carly:Hi. We love a good little crash. How are you going, gorgeous? And so can you tell us Kellie, before you had your first babe though, seven years ago… Kellie:Yes. Carly:How did you think you were going to handle sleep with your family? Kellie:I don’t think I even really thought about it, like most of us. I had a teaching background, like you, so you know, I went into it thinking I knew what I was doing. I have a degree in child… children. I should be fine. And I honestly didn’t really think a lot about it. Even though my niece is only eight months older than my eldest and she was a terrible sleeper, I still didn’t really think a lot about it. Yeah, we had the bassinet and the baby’s room set up and, yeah, we went in like… like so many people do, with no idea. Absolutely no idea. Carly:And so how did that turn out once she arrived? Kellie:She was the classic don’t want… don’t want to sleep anywhere other than on you baby. And she… we had feeding issues, which was her biggest issue to be honest, and once we got her feeding issues happening she was okay. And she was not a terrible sleeper but she wasn’t great either. She wasn’t perfect. She slept through early but then went terrible with her teeth and we fell into co-sleeping when she was teething because that was the only way that her and I both got sleep. So we, yeah, we kind of fell into co-sleeping and she slept better when she was with me, but she would also, if everything was okay she was happy to sleep in her cot as well. So she was not terrible. I’m really, really lucky that none of my babies have been terrible, terrible sleepers, so yeah, we’ve kind of survived and not been… I… I had my, my next-door neighbour had a baby a month after me with, after I had Annabel, and she… her baby was a terrible sleeper. And as I said, my nice was a terrible sleeper, and my nephew was even worse. So, I have a lot of comparison. So I know that mine aren’t that bad. They were normal. Normal infant sleep Carly:Kept it all in context. Kept it in context for you. Kellie:Yes. Yes. Carly:So, so when you say she had some feeding issues, what was going on for her and what did, like what ended up actually helping there? Kellie:She had a tongue-tie and, which we identified in hospital, but as happens we had not great support and [5:00] the, every nurse shift change they’d come in and tell me. We’d get her feeding and then I’d say I think… we think she has a tongue-tie and they would say, ‘Oh, we’ll get it, get her feeding,’ and then discover that we were right. And in hindsight we… it was dealt with when she was I think four days old, but I don’t think it was dealt with properly and she still, she actually has had some speech issues that are linked back to that and, yeah, we don’t think in hindsight it was dealt with properly. But at the time we didn’t know and we were relatively new to the area. We’d only moved, oh, a couple of months before she was born, across… across the country from WA to New South Wales, so we didn’t know anyone, we didn’t know where to go. We were very lucky that we got an amazing child health nurse who is absolutely wonderful and really lovely, but not super knowledgeable in breastfeeding. So, she got us feeding with nipple shields and luckily I had no supply issues, and so we didn’t, we just fed, I fed her for 15 months with nipple shields and that’s how we got through and she got sleeping and, yeah, she just wasn’t, she wasn’t feeding enough to sleep deep enough in the early days. So, and she wasn’t waking because she wasn’t feeding enough. So, yeah. So once we got all that sorted, yes. Carly:Those tricky newborn days. Kellie:Uh huh. Carly:It’s like such a… such a battle for some people to get things rolling. I’m pleased it worked out for you and, yeah. Kellie:It is. It is. It was… it was quite anxiety-inducing for me though, because we had to, we had to wake her every three hours and we had to feed her every three hours, and I don’t work well with that ‘have to’, which is something that then applied on with the twins. And yeah, so I was… I became really anxious because I was like, well, we can’t go anywhere because I have to feed her in another hour and a half, so we have to run our lives around three-hourly timeslots. So yes, the first… once we… once we got past that I was okay, but those first few weeks where we had to function on the three-hourly time slots was just really hard. Carly:It would have been really hard and, like you say, like brings that anxiety up. Did you have some support with you when you, like you said you’d moved across the country away from everybody, did you have anybody giving you a hand in those early days? Kellie:Not really. My parents came briefly when they, when… well, when she was first born, and then they went back to WA. And so yeah, not really. Luckily, as I said, my child health nurse was amazing. She was really lovely and she checked in on us an awful lot. But yeah, we didn’t have a lot of support at all, no. Carly:It makes it a bit more challenging, especially when you’re trying to find your feet. So, you say that you… Kellie:Absolutely. Carly:You said that babe was sleeping in the cot sometimes, but when it was a rough patch you were co-sleeping. Did you have information on how to make that a bit safer for you both? Or did you very much fall into it accidentally and… Kellie:Absolutely fell into it accidentally. Absolutely. And then later on, once we kind of realised that this was going to happen regularly we start.. we like researched on safe sleeping, but it’s now definitely my first piece of advice to everybody, is make sure you – even if you don’t think you’re going to, make sure you would… you research safe co-sleeping because you never know when you might end up accidentally doing it. Learn more about safer sleep Carly:That’s right. And the research says like 75% of families will do it, whether they intend to or not, in that first three months with their baby. Kellie:Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Carly:So, yeah, very, very sage advice, and anybody listening along, if you haven’t yet hit the point where you are or have shared sleep with your baby – and it can include not necessarily just in bed with you, because I know that for me… Kellie:Yeah. Carly:…that was something I did not realise. Kellie:The couch. Carly:Yeah, nursing chairs, the couch. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:And that goes for partners too guys. Kellie:Yep. Yep. Carly:Like, people sleeping on recliners, as sweet as it looks that that baby’s sleeping on someone’s chest with them sound asleep, dangerous. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:I’m sorry to say, but if you can… we can, we’ll drop links into the show notes for people to figure out how to reduce risk in their setting, but really, really important information Kellie’s just shared there. So thank you. Kellie:Yeah, definitely. Carly:So tell us though, during this time too I’m wondering how is day sleep looking for you guys? What was going on for your first love? Kellie:I can’t really remember to be honest. I think she just slept on us, so we kind of never really cared. Yeah, I wasn’t super anxious about the whole sleeping [10:00] in bed thing. Like, that wasn’t something, you know not, like yeah, I was okay with her sleeping on me, so I just, we just did that. Yeah. Carly:I love that. And just… accept that that’s what she needed at the time. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:Did you do anything during her contact naps? Or did you just use that as time to rest yourself? Were you somebody who needed to…? Kellie:I absolutely, no. I think having, because we’re a Defence family I knew that I just had to do whatever I had to to survive, and so I didn’t… I was never super stressed about the house being spotless or anything like that. So, I kind of did what we had to to survive and just, yeah. Carly:I love that. Kellie:That was it basically. Yeah. Carly:Perfect. Did you… did you know about babywearing or anything like that at the time? Or was it purely…? Kellie:I did. I did. My sister used, with my, with her eldest she… she used a carrier a lot. I wasn’t super into it at the time. I, yeah, but I did know about it. I didn’t use it a lot to get things done though. I think, you know, that… that first baby thing, you can just rule your life around her. So, you know, I just did… when… when I had five minutes I did something and I didn’t really stress about it so much. Carly:I love it. Such a relaxed attitude to it. Kellie:The babywearing thing definitely came in with number two. So… yeah. Learn about babywearing safety Carly:We might actually, we can probably go onto baby number two then. Kellie:Yes. Carly:Can you tell us what was it like, like what was the lead in to welcoming baby number two? Kellie:He was easy. Carly:Yeah? Kellie:He was so easy. He was everything that you want in a first baby that you don’t get. Carly:Or if you get it in the first baby you don’t in the second. Kellie:Yep. We had had Annabel’s most horrific sleep period while I was pregnant with him when we discovered that she had dairy issues and that was upsetting her at night. So we’d just got her back sleeping. My husband had deployed while, to the Middle East while I was pregnant with him as well. So yeah, so he came home and he was easy. He did that whole breast crawl thing and he fed so easy and he was, you know, we went in with him going, okay, so we’re not going to get the tongue-tie dealt with at hospital. We’ll go to… we’d learnt about another lady locally in the time. We’ll go to her. We had everything planned out, and he was easy. Just yeah, he was such an easy baby, in so many respects he would… he was happy to sleep in his own bed. He, the only thing was he needed to be danced to sleep, so I got a great workout every time he wanted to go, needed to go to bed. So yeah, he was fantastic. He fed two hourly on the clock. Like, you could set your watch by him until he was 18 months old. So, and I honestly, I honestly say that’s easier than Annabel. Annabel slept through early and then didn’t, and then did, and then didn’t, and then did. Whereas Brady just was so easy because you just got used to it and, you know, it was… it was, yeah, not so big, such a big deal. We still ended up co-sleeping with him. He… he co-slept with us until he was 3½. In bits, he would sneak up to our bed, which by the time he stopped the twins – are loud – the twins were 10 months old I think when he stopped, so sneaking up to our room. Carly:Yep. Kellie:But yeah, he was… he was a much easier baby. But I babywore, like I wore him. He did most of his day naps in the carrier. He’s a really snuggly baby, so he loved, he loved that babywearing. The background noise is loud. Carly:It’s no worries at all. Kellie:They’re playing. Carly:I do love though, like when you’re describing an easy baby it’s also the kind of baby that can be a baby people stress about if they’re not sure about what’s normal. So, you know, the fact that you were snuggling, he needed lots of contact naps and, you know, waking two hourly for feeds and… Sleep and development Kellie:Yep. Carly:…all of those things, and needing to be danced to sleep, like you know… Kellie:Yeah. Carly:…easy, but only if you realise that that’s what you… you can be expecting from a babe and be okay. Hey gorgeous. I love it. Yeah. Kellie:And he, I think because he was just, he was happy, and he… [child’s voice: Hello.]. Carly:Cutie things. I love it. Kellie:He was happy and he, yeah, he just… [15:00] I think, especially after having Annabel, like she had a really bad period not long before he was born, as I said, like it was just [child laughing]. Off you go. Go play. Carly:We won’t keep mum too long. I promise, sweetie. Kellie:He was just, yeah. Like she had been… she’d had a really tough time with dairy, dairy waking her during the night, and really quite extreme separation anxiety. And so to go from that to this baby that was just happy to sleep was just not such a big deal. Yeah. Beginning your journey beyond sleep training Carly:So when you found out you were pregnant with twins… Kellie:Uh huh. Carly:… what was… what was going through your mind in terms of what you thought you were going to need to do to manage sleep, because you knew what babies were like by this point. Kellie:Yeah. Yes, well and truly. Carly:So, what did you think? Kellie:We… so we went into the twins knowing that we would have to just do whatever it was to get me the most sleep. We have the added trickiness of the fact that my husband, because he is Defence and he is not a pilot but he is flying, he has to have a certain amount of sleep sometimes. So, we knew that whatever we did we had to maximise our sleep. And he’s, like he’s never done the night times because I just feed them overnight. Like, so he can’t do much anyway. But with the twins he had to to start with, which was a new experience for us. For him, in particular, a very new experience because he didn’t… [child’s voice]. There you go. There you go. He hadn’t done very much night waking at all. So we set up a sidecar cot next to our bed. [Child’s voice] Okay. We rearranged… we rearranged our bedroom, which isn’t very big as it is, and we put a cot next to our bed, and it was life-changing to the extent that even he said to me, ‘Why didn’t we do this with the older two?’ To which I said, ‘Because you wouldn’t have let me.’ But yeah, it was honestly… Carly:It changes it. Kellie:Well, that’s it. We just were in this whatever. We’ll do… we’ll do whatever we have to. We knew that co-sleeping gets us the most sleep so we just went straight to that. So, from day one that the twins came home they have, had been, have been right next to me, which means that the worst that I had to do was roll over to deal with them. So… Carly:It’s so important though. Like, minimising that fatigue that’s involved in… in that night-time nurture, it’s so crucial to your wellbeing. Like… Kellie:It… it is. It is, I mean when you… sorry, when we… when they were born our eldest had just started preschool. So, we had preschool runs to do. They had, the big two had swimming lessons and gymnastics and we had… we couldn’t just stay home. We couldn’t just stay home and do nothing forever. We had to function as a family. So, we did. You know, we… we maximised the sleep and we, you know, I’d go to bed early if I had to, but generally just having them next to me meant that, yeah, like I could rollover. I had nappies and wipes right next to me as well, so I could grab those, change… change nappies, feed them and put them back down again. And it… it was, yeah, made life so much easier. Carly:Brilliant. And so with your older two at that point, were they still needing like people at night-time? And like what, how were you managing that? Kellie:So my oldest wasn’t. She’s a very deep sleeper so she was, she was… by that stage she was pretty good. But yeah, number two child, he was… he was, we called him the sleep ninja because he would, he would just sneak up. We had the twins both side by side because they sleep better. They’ve always slept better together. So they were side by side in the cot, and he would sneak in at some point during the night and end up in between my husband and I and we wouldn’t even notice because he was… he was a sleep ninja. Carly:He’d just roll on in. Kellie:Yep. And we’d wake up and we’d be like, ‘Oh, he’s here. Okay.’ Carly:Hi. Kellie:And it wasn’t till my husband said to me that he needs to really stay in his own bed, and I said, ‘Well, I’m not putting him back in there. I just want to sleep.’ Like… Carly:Yeah, it’s like, ‘Well, you can take him.’ Kellie:And yeah, exactly that. If you want him out of our bed you can take him back to bed, buddy. And it took us like [20:00] a week of putting him back in his bed and he, he was fine after that. But yeah, my husband’s always like once… once babies come he’s dealt with the night-time wakings, but because… because he’s away so much they don’t want him as well. So, we’ve quite regularly I’ve had to… not so much with, once the twins came, but with Brady when Annabel, when they were little I’ve had to do the Annabel wakings as well, because she didn’t want dad. She wanted mum. And it’s easier and quicker to just deal with it than deal with a fight at 2am over which parent. Carly:Absolutely. And I get, I think that’s something for people listening along too, like for some families it really is worth the push to be able to get both of you able to do it. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:But for other families, it was actually the same for us, by and large, like if it was going to be a battle… Kellie:Yeah. Carly:… all it did was mean we, there was more people in the house not sleeping. Kellie:Yes. Carly:And to us that was not okay. Kellie:No. Carly:Like, what we all needed was sleep. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:So, at the moment like it works better for my husband to go into our second guy when he has a nightmare and whatnot. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:But for the longest time that just wasn’t on the cards. Kellie:Yeah. Yeah. Carly:And it’s okay for families just to roll with that. Kellie:Yep. Yep. Carly:And it won’t always be like that. Kellie:No, that’s it. Carly:But if it is for now then… Kellie:If that works, if that gets you sleep don’t like… Carly:Yeah. Kellie:…just don’t worry about it. Carly:Don’t stress about it. And I don’t know about you, because you’re, you’ve like… but any time I have actually needed to be away the kids have been fine with d Kellie:Yeah. Carly:It’s only if the both of us are there and they could have either/either that it’s a thing. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:They’re fine with daddy otherwise. Kellie:Yeah. I haven’t… I haven’t tested mine overnight ever, but yeah, during the day they’ve all been generally okay. We’ve had a little bit of pat… a little, few little patches where they haven’t been at all. Number four child, she is a COVID toddler and for ages didn’t like people at all, so she had lots of issues separating from me. And Annabel went through a little bit of a stage as well. But yeah, otherwise they’ve been generally fine to stay with dad during the day. It’s just not necessarily at night. But… Carly:Night-time’s very vulnerable. Like they’re, you know, everyone’s tired and it’s… Kellie:Yep. Carly:It’s an extra sensitive time I think for little people, and… Kellie:Absolutely. Absolutely. Carly:… they don’t necessarily have that space to be like, ‘Oh yeah, I’ll be fine with whoever.’ It’s like, ‘No, I just want mum.’ Kellie:That’s it. Yeah, exactly. Carly:Yeah. Kellie:Mums are for night and… and in our house, you know, because he’s been… he’s been away for so much of their lives, in our house mum does the night-times. Like, mum does… mum does it all. So, they just are used to mum doing it all and, you know, just yeah, function. We all function that way so that’s normal for us. Carly:That’s, that’s, that’s your reality. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:That’s your family’s dynamic and I think that’s really important for people to understand too, because it’s that you work with what you’ve got, you work with the situations that you’re in, the support that you have available… Kellie:Yes. That’s it. Carly:… and this is obviously what worked for you guys. Kellie:And I think too it’s important to remember that just because everyone tells you that… that you need to get to a point where, like in the multiples community it’s very pushy that you need to get someone else to be able to settle your babies to sleep. And I mean for us that was just never something that happened. You know, we’ve never had anyone else here enough to learn to settle them, and my husband’s been away so much that he… he could in the early days when they were newborns, but once they got past that stage he’s not been able to settle them to sleep either. But it just doesn’t matter. Like, for us it’s not like I’ve had to leave them. I haven’t had to leave them. I don’t choose to leave them. So yes, it’s more work on me perhaps, but you know, he cooks dinner every night because Annabel used to cluster feed during that dinner time cooking time, and so he cooks dinner every night because that’s just the habit we’ve fallen into. So, yes I’ve had to feed her and put her to bed, but he does something else instead. Carly:Yeah. That’s it. Kellie:So it’s, it… yeah, as much as it… it falls on me to get her to sleep, he just does something else. So, it’s not a big deal and it’s worked… it works for us, and it doesn’t matter. Everyone says you have to, but you don’t. If it doesn’t work for you… if it doesn’t work for you and your family don’t worry about it. Just do what works. Carly:It’s exactly the whole point, isn’t it? Kellie:Yep. Carly:Like, it’s literally you’re the one who’s doing it. You’re the one who’s living it. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:And you can only ever make decisions based on what’s working for you and your little ones. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:And that’s so changing too. Kellie:Absolutely. Yep. Carly:Like over the years and whatnot things are always in a state of flux. So, it’s not like anything’s going to be this way forever. Kellie:That’s exactly, and that’s... we went into the twins with that exact [25:00] thought, is that it is just a stage. You know, we knew that… we knew that they wouldn’t sleep with us forever, because the other two didn’t. And we knew that they, like we wouldn’t… I wouldn’t breastfeed them forever because the other two had stopped. And we knew, you know, we all of these things that we knew, that people tell you are bad habits, we knew they weren’t because we’d been there, done that and our older two had already outgrown those things. And so, you know, we could… we went in and we were like, right, you’re having dummies, I’m breastfeeding… I’m feeding you to sleep. I still feed them to sleep. They’re almost 3. They’re 3 in April and I still feed them to sleep. Breastfeeding and sleep Carly:Go you, you legend. Well done. Kellie:It’s the easiest. It is the easiest option. When there’s two of them it’s the easiest option. So, you know… Carly:It’s impressive still, mate. Kellie:Well, I mean part of it now is that I… I’ve kept feeding because of… because of the virus I am aware that all of the good stuff that they get from it as well. So, I’m slightly reluctant to wean them while it’s around, but it’s honestly the easiest, quickest way to get them to sleep every night, so we just do it. Carly:It’s like a superpower. Kellie:Oh, it really is. Carly:And, you know, giving up a superpower, there’s consequences, isn’t there. So… Kellie:Exactly. Exactly. I don’t even want to think about what happens next. Carly:How do I even get them to sleep? Kellie:No idea. Carly:That’s so good. Now, really quickly, because we are actually coming up to our 30 minutes and I don’t want to keep you for too long, but really quickly what on earth did you do for day sleep with twins? Just quickly. Kellie:Oh, golly gee. To be honest, they… so their first year of life they pretty much were dragged around to the big kid stuff. So they slept in the pram, they slept in the carrier, they slept in the car, they slept when they could. Honestly, we had no routine. We found a routine when COVID hit and they coincidentally dropped to one nap a day and we were home all day every day so they could dictate life around their nap suddenly, which was the, it was the first time. It was literally they turned 1 in April of that year. So it was the first… they were like 11 months old when we, when they finally got to dictate their routine. Up until that point they just slept when they could. They honestly, like and it’s same thing, the multiples community is so pushy on routine. And routine, as I said before, routine’s anxiety inducing for me because I can’t, I just can’t. If I feel like I’m going to be late for something I start getting anxious about it. So they just slept when they could. They… they were, they were amazing really, to fit in around life. And so, yeah, I fed them to sleep if we were at home and they would sleep on our bed or in… in our bed, in the bed. They would sleep in the pram if we were out walking or at gymnastics or wherever we were. They’d sleep in the car in between. And if all else failed I’d put them in the carrier and they’d zonk it in there. Carly:Love it. There’s so much flexibility in it and not as much stress, ‘cause you’re just… Kellie:No. Carly:… all rolling along. Like not… Kellie:Yeah. Carly:I guess it kind of is the real case of taking sleep out of sharp focus. Kellie:Yeah. Carly:Like you had so many other things that were… Kellie:Absolutely. Carly:…where your brain was at. Kellie:Yep. Carly:That… Kellie:Yep. Carly:I actually think it… it’s a whole lot less stressful. That was a lot less stressful for me too. Kellie:I think so. Carly:Did you find that sometimes they were just super tired though? Or was it really…? Kellie:Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I think that because we were quite often on the go they… they got lots of little naps, and they probably never got the consolidated sleeps that they… they say they have to have, but they were never horrible. Like, every now and then you’d have a bad day where they just didn’t get enough sleep, but then that happens if you’re at home. Like, that happened with my oldest when we were at home when we could dictate life around her. So, you know… Carly:And everybody has bad days, like babies included. Kellie:Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean it… the bad days are hard, really hard when you have two demanding your attention. But same thing. Like if it’s just, yeah, I don’t know. We just rolled with the flow. We really… we knew they are bad days. We knew that it would end and they would suddenly be 3 year olds then. Carly:And here you are. Kellie:Exactly. Exactly. Carly:I love it. Kellie:So, yeah, I think… I think for us, having them as our third and fourth was a blessing because we knew that it was just [30:00] a stage, and everything was just a stage, and that we could wean them off dummies. We could get them out of our bed eventually. We could survive a bad day. We could, you know, do what we needed to do. So, yeah. I mean we just took it with the… we really went with the flow and just survived. Carly:And I think it sounds like you’ve done a marvellous job. And I’m just looking at our time, ‘cause unfortunately we’re up to our 30 minutes. But I’m wondering, because you’ve given so many… much wisdom to people listening along, but do you have a tip that you wish you could go back and tell yourself right back in the day? Kellie:I think find good support, the knowledgeable people, and don’t be afraid to say that it’s hard, but also know that it’s just a stage and that it, yeah, it will end and you will survive, as hard as it might feel. Carly:Beautiful. And I’m sure there’s people listening along who are really appreciating hearing all of this perspective, because that’s exactly what you sometimes need when you’re up to your neck in it, is just a bit of context and perspective to bring you back. Kellie:Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean a baby, they’re only a baby for a year, and it feels like a long time in the… in the moment it feels like forever, but you blink and they’re toddlers, and you blink again and they’re in school and, yeah. The days are.. the days are long, the years are short, is really, yeah. The older they get you really realise how true that really is. Carly:Awesome. And thank you so much for coming on the show, Kellie. I really appreciate… Kellie:That’s okay. Carly:…your time today, and dodging around little people. You did it masterfully, as so many of our guests do, so thank you very much. Kellie:That’s okay. Carly:And for anyone listening along, if you have got multiples we’d love to hear about how you’re going. We do have mums like Kellie and other parents in the group who have got multiples, so feel free to post any of your concerns and we can help you troubleshoot and work things through, because there are ways to do life like Kellie and her family, beyond sleep training, whether you have multiples or not. So thank you so much for that today, Kellie. Kellie:Thank you. Help us keep creating this podcast! Donate today Carly: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today the information we discussed was just that information only it is not specific advice if you take any action following something you've heard from our show today it is important to make sure you get professional advice about your unique situation before you proceed whether that advice is legal, financial, accounting, medical or any other advice. Please reach out to me if you do have any questions or if there's a topic you'd really like us to be covering and if you know somebody who'd really benefit from listening to our podcast please be sure to pass our name along also check out our free peer support group the beyond sleep training project and our wonderful website www.littlesparklers.org. If you'd like even more from the show you can join us as a patron on Patreon and you can find a link for that in our show notes if listening is not really your jam we also make sure we put full episode transcripts on our little sparklers website for you to also enjoy and fully captioned YouTube videos as well on our Little Sparklers channel so thanks again for listening today we really enjoy bringing this podcast to you. Join us on Patreon today “The Beyond Sleep Training Podcast (Podcast) is hosted by Little Sparklers (us, we or our). The primary purpose of this Podcast is to educate and inform. It does not constitute professional advice or services. We invite guests on the Podcast from time to time (Guests). In listening to this Podcast, you acknowledge and agree that the views expressed in this podcast are: information only and do not constitute professional advice from us or our Guests; personal to us and our Guests and do not necessarily reflect any other agency, organisation, employer or company and may not be verified for accuracy; and general in nature and do not refer to any unique situation. If you take action on the basis of any Podcast episode, you should obtain professional advice – whether legal, financial, accounting, medical or otherwise – before proceeding. This Podcast is available for private, non-commercial use only. Advertising which is incorporated into, placed in association with or targeted toward the content of this Podcast without our express approval is forbidden. You may not edit, modify, or redistribute this Podcast. We assume no liability for any activities in connection with this Podcast or for use of this Podcast in connection with any other website, third party streaming service, computer or playing device.